Starting a scale book series, Scale Skills by Keith Snell

Another beginner perspective here. After hearing about scales practice, I've bought the Alfred book and started to figure out two octaves, hands together scales. I found them strangely enjoyable. I was doing scales (and Hanon) in my breaks etc. Without a metronome. With my self-thought technique. Getting faster and faster. And... I got pain in my hands .

Then I thought I should learn proper technique first, before collecting more and more injuries . Subscribed Entrada (after a recommendation in this forum). To my surprise they put the scale technique in advanced section, after arpeggios, trills, octaves etc.! So I put scales (and Hanon) on hold until I improve my technique a bit more.

hebele Entrada

Does this involve a teacher looking at your playing (either in real time or on video) and giving you feedback that's targeted at/for you?

ShiroKuro no feedback. I don't think they offer any. I know a teacher would be the solution. But I cannot make the time for face to face sessions for now. And online services feel like a poor substitute.

@hebele if you are having pain, there's probably something in your technique, the way you're holding your hands/wrists/arms that is causing you trouble. If you don't get it corrected, it may get worse.

I don't mean to sound alarmist, but that would be my concern.

A service like Entrada is not likely to help you figure out what you're doing wrong.

Perhaps you could find someone who you could meet with once a month? Also, regarding online services, there are two models that might benefit you. One is where you do a live, real-time lesson. This is the best online scenario, because you can get immediate feedback and easily ask questions etc. The other model is where you send in a video and get feedback on it. This is not as good as real-time, but still would get you some feedback that's geared to you specifically.

I highly recommend you pursue one of these options, esp. if you're having pain.

ShiroKuro thanks for the concern. I don't have pain anymore. And I am pretty sure it was because I was too enthusiastic and careless about scales/Hanon exercises. I am much more cautious now.

Ahh, ok, if your pain is gone, that is a good sign!!

Pallas The last thing I want to do is say something that seems to lack compassion.

I don't think you ever do, you are always kind!

RFox Scale fingering is, or should be, based on principles that don't need a book listing all the scales out. Cover the principles, they're very brief, then learn the starting finger for each scale and which tone to use the fourth finger on.

I disagree. While I agree that principles are the way to go when learning to play scales and can result in quicker memorization, there are multiple possible scale fingerings and the reason why we have standard fingerings is largely because of convention and not because they are the logically most efficient way to play them. That is, someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

See bernhard's comment here. He suggests playing F major LH scales 3214321: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756

Likewise, why wouldn't you play a C major scale 12341234? After all, it's likely quicker that way.

You could also play a C chromatic scale 123412345123

Given that there are many possibilities, it makes sense for a beginner to learn the standard, conventional fingering because it's not guaranteed they will come to the same conclusion otherwise.

ranjit someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

Exactly!

And, even if any given pianist changes fingerings later, or (of course) makes alterations that fit some specific musical context, it's very important to learn the standard fingering. That has pedagogical value in and of itself.

So, back to @RFox 's earlier comment about the fingering listed on the page I uploaded -- I'm not going to argue with anyone about those fingerings (for one thing, I'm not in front of a piano right now). But those are established, accepted fingerings and learning them will be of value.

Pallas I love having a supportive environment in which to talk about famously tricky subjects, and I'm getting a lot out of this topic.

Me too!

hebele Another beginner perspective here. After hearing about scales practice, I've bought the Alfred book and started to figure out two octaves, hands together scales. I found them strangely enjoyable. I was doing scales (and Hanon) in my breaks etc. Without a metronome. With my self-thought technique. Getting faster and faster. And... I got pain in my hands .

I too find scales and arpeggios practice not boring and often enjoyable. The reason, I think, is it allows me to focus on figuring out finger touch, movement, and tweaking those motions for better efficiency and relaxation.

I do use metronome. I find both slow tempo and faster tempo serves their respective and unique purpose. Also, strangely, I find hands separate still needs to be practiced even after I can play hands together well.

navindra if it's truly trivial, I'll just breeze through it until I get to my difficulty level.

that's a smart way to look at it. Also, if there's some aspect you've missed, this should give you a chance to acquire it.

BTW does anyone do chromatic scale practice? When I first heard about chromatic scale, I did not quite get its usefulness. Then one day I came across this video by Paul Barton talking about using the 3-4-5 finger chromatic scale to exercise the weak fingers. That seems to make a lot of sense.

ranjit wrote

While I agree that principles are the way to go when learning to play scales and can result in quicker memorization, there are multiple possible scale fingerings and the reason why we have standard fingerings is largely because of convention and not because they are the logically most efficient way to play them. That is, someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

There are essentially seven alternatives once we accept the premise that there are seven tones in a scale, the 4th finger is only used once per octave so work out where that one goes (or can go) and you're good to go.
It only takes seven tries to find out which versions are workable, which are not, which are best and which are reasonable alternatives. Once the principle has been learnt you can always work out a scale fingering in a few seconds. Chopin's idea is that the long fingers go on the short keys and vice versa. In this way the 4th finger, RH, "belongs" on Bb and in the LH it belongs on F#. This is the easiest way of passing the thumb under the fourth, the trickiest part of each scale.
Liszt advocated, as an exercise, scale playing with C Major fingering for ALL keys. My teacher gave me the principles and assigned working out the fingering as homework but I wasn't a beginner.
If you were to work out and practise all seven variations each day I think you’d quickly settle on a preference.

ranjit wrote

See bernhard's comment here. He suggests playing F major LH scales 3214321: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756

Well of course he does! It puts the 4th finger on the only black key in the scale in each hand. That's the essence of the scale fingering principle introduced by Chopin instead of the standard, which I believe goes back to CPE Bach's Versuch.

ranjit wrote

Likewise, why wouldn't you play a C major scale 12341234? After all, it's likely quicker that way.

In practise it should indeed be one of the seven versions to try. The reason for using 4 on the seventh (RH) or second (LH) is that the scale can finish using the fifth finger at the outer ends for those that like to do that. Some teachers advocate scale practise without using the 5th finger at all. There is no reason not to use all seven variations for C Major since there are no black keys.

ranjit wrote

You could also play a C chromatic scale 123412345123

While other fingerings are possible (and that might be explored at some stage) there are three main fingerings for chromatics (rising from E in RH, descending from C in LH): French (123 13 13 123 13), English (123 1234 123 13) and Liszt's, which you've given, (123 1234 12345 1).
The reasons for them are that more thumb crossings give greater clarity and fewer give greater speed. When these have been learned they can be applied easily starting on any key. Is there really a need for writing all these out for someone ready to start on chromatic scales?

I have a lot to answer to, please forgive my double post.

ShiroKuro wrote

This is interesting (the idea that scales aren't for beginners), I wonder how many teachers would agree with you.

When it applies to those that don't have a teacher, more than you might think; I learnt it from hearing or reading so many say the same thing but scales introduced by a teacher are fine if the teacher knows what they're doing, introduces the principles of scale fingering and watches the student play. Problems may arise when students with less than two years or so of piano playing start cranking out scales over two or more octaves several times a day, usually aiming to build speed, instead of putting the time into developing their technique with pieces.
When the piano was introduced as an instrument 'col piano e forte' the dynamic element was seen as an add-on but in practise controlling the dynamics is essentially an obligation. For the beginner it is far more productive and beneficial to introduce dynamic control, phrasing, rhythm, articulation and five-finger exercises. Scales aren't finger exercises (they don't work 4 or 5 enough) and they do not have as much benefit before these other skills have had time to develop and begin to blossom.
When we restrict ourselves to pieces for the first year or two we don't play the same thing every day, we approach each key with varying intervals instead of always from the adjacent key, and we get used to using all our fingers. When we've built a foundational technique scales can be introduced slowly, gradually and carefully, developing the finger groups more as a spring-tined rake than a set of levers.

ShiroKuro wrote

So, back to @RFox 's earlier comment about the fingering listed on the page I uploaded -- I'm not going to argue with anyone about those fingerings (for one thing, I'm not in front of a piano right now). But those are established, accepted fingerings and learning them will be of value.

They aren't the only ones and they aren't Chopin's choice. The ABRSM give Chopin's fingerings as alternatives in their Manual of Scales and Arpeggios. They accept any reasonable fingering in an exam.
I think it's a good idea to use both fingerings until a preference has been found but I also think it's wrong not to introduce Chopin's ergonomic fingering at the same time and give the student a choice.

RFox For the beginner it is far more productive and beneficial to introduce dynamic control, phrasing, rhythm, articulation and five-finger exercises. Scales aren't finger exercises (they don't work 4 or 5 enough) and they do not have as much benefit before these other skills have had time to develop and begin to blossom.

@RFox Very valid point. The method books do emphasize dynamics, phrasing, and articulation, too. But for strengthening 4 & 5 fingers, I haven’t found any in my Faber book yet. What exercise(s) would you recommend for 4 & 5 fingers?

Besides your point of scales being not the best time spent by beginner for most productivity, would you mind to elaborate on the danger, too? What kind of harm can be done practicing scales as beginners, especially without a teacher? If, and how, that can be avoided?