Starting a scale book series, Scale Skills by Keith Snell

navindra · 2024-10-13T04:45:43+00:00

I've always been against the idea of learning scales from a scale book. I guess I didn't really see the point. All scales are the same, all chords are the sa...

hebele

Another beginner perspective here. After hearing about scales practice, I've bought the Alfred book and started to figure out two octaves, hands together scales. I found them strangely enjoyable. I was doing scales (and Hanon) in my breaks etc. Without a metronome. With my self-thought technique. Getting faster and faster. And... I got pain in my hands 🙁.

Then I thought I should learn proper technique first, before collecting more and more injuries . Subscribed Entrada (after a recommendation in this forum). To my surprise they put the scale technique in advanced section, after arpeggios, trills, octaves etc.! 🤯 So I put scales (and Hanon) on hold until I improve my technique a bit more.

ShiroKuro

hebele Entrada

Does this involve a teacher looking at your playing (either in real time or on video) and giving you feedback that's targeted at/for you?

iternabe

hebele Another beginner perspective here. After hearing about scales practice, I've bought the Alfred book and started to figure out two octaves, hands together scales. I found them strangely enjoyable. I was doing scales (and Hanon) in my breaks etc. Without a metronome. With my self-thought technique. Getting faster and faster. And... I got pain in my hands 🙁.

I too find scales and arpeggios practice not boring and often enjoyable. The reason, I think, is it allows me to focus on figuring out finger touch, movement, and tweaking those motions for better efficiency and relaxation.

I do use metronome. I find both slow tempo and faster tempo serves their respective and unique purpose. Also, strangely, I find hands separate still needs to be practiced even after I can play hands together well.

hebele

ShiroKuro no feedback. I don't think they offer any. I know a teacher would be the solution. But I cannot make the time for face to face sessions for now. And online services feel like a poor substitute.

ShiroKuro

@hebele if you are having pain, there's probably something in your technique, the way you're holding your hands/wrists/arms that is causing you trouble. If you don't get it corrected, it may get worse.

I don't mean to sound alarmist, but that would be my concern.

A service like Entrada is not likely to help you figure out what you're doing wrong.

Perhaps you could find someone who you could meet with once a month? Also, regarding online services, there are two models that might benefit you. One is where you do a live, real-time lesson. This is the best online scenario, because you can get immediate feedback and easily ask questions etc. The other model is where you send in a video and get feedback on it. This is not as good as real-time, but still would get you some feedback that's geared to you specifically.

I highly recommend you pursue one of these options, esp. if you're having pain.

hebele

ShiroKuro thanks for the concern. I don't have pain anymore. And I am pretty sure it was because I was too enthusiastic and careless about scales/Hanon exercises. I am much more cautious now.

ShiroKuro

Ahh, ok, if your pain is gone, that is a good sign!!

Pallas

ShiroKuro I know a lot of people have various restrictions (whether time, money, location, etc.) that means they can't work one-on-one with a teacher, so I know my opinion here about the importance of teachers isn't necessarily fair or realistic for many.

100%. I wish I had said it this way. The last thing I want to do is say something that seems to lack compassion.

ShiroKuro

Pallas The last thing I want to do is say something that seems to lack compassion.

I don't think you ever do, you are always kind! 🙂

Pallas

ShiroKuro I don't think you ever do, you are always kind! 🙂

Thank you for the reassurance. I feel very sensitive about the feelings of our members. I love having a supportive environment in which to talk about famously tricky subjects, and I'm getting a lot out of this topic.

ranjit

RFox Scale fingering is, or should be, based on principles that don't need a book listing all the scales out. Cover the principles, they're very brief, then learn the starting finger for each scale and which tone to use the fourth finger on.

I disagree. While I agree that principles are the way to go when learning to play scales and can result in quicker memorization, there are multiple possible scale fingerings and the reason why we have standard fingerings is largely because of convention and not because they are the logically most efficient way to play them. That is, someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

See bernhard's comment here. He suggests playing F major LH scales 3214321: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756

Likewise, why wouldn't you play a C major scale 12341234? After all, it's likely quicker that way.

You could also play a C chromatic scale 123412345123

Given that there are many possibilities, it makes sense for a beginner to learn the standard, conventional fingering because it's not guaranteed they will come to the same conclusion otherwise.

ShiroKuro

ranjit someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

Exactly!

And, even if any given pianist changes fingerings later, or (of course) makes alterations that fit some specific musical context, it's very important to learn the standard fingering. That has pedagogical value in and of itself.

So, back to @RFox 's earlier comment about the fingering listed on the page I uploaded -- I'm not going to argue with anyone about those fingerings (for one thing, I'm not in front of a piano right now). But those are established, accepted fingerings and learning them will be of value.

ShiroKuro

Pallas I love having a supportive environment in which to talk about famously tricky subjects, and I'm getting a lot out of this topic.

Me too! 🙂

iternabe

RFox I do apologise for any unintended hurt.

No hurt happened. I actually find your original post informational and your subsequently reply clear and helpful.

Pallas

I actually really enjoy the challenge of scales too. Overall, I find piano a thrilling puzzle that never ceases to entertain and amaze me. I usually don't want to roll my piano out the window. Only about 3% of the time, and that's not the piano's fault. 😜

navindra

ShiroKuro This is what the first page looks like:

I don't actually feel too bad about working on something so easy, because if it's truly trivial, I'll just breeze through it until I get to my difficulty level. However, the book won't go to waste because my daughter is starting on this same scale book as well and hopefully my son will eventually use it too.

ShiroKuro

navindra if it's truly trivial, I'll just breeze through it until I get to my difficulty level.

that's a smart way to look at it. Also, if there's some aspect you've missed, this should give you a chance to acquire it.

iternabe

The example pages shown from the Snell book seems very literal to me. Maybe that's the reason why it has 8 books in the series?

The Alfred book is much denser. Each key needed its own 2 pages because of the need to indicate fingering fully. But in term of how to play each exercise, I am not taking what's written strictly literally in term of time signature and rhythmic pattern. For example, instead of 2 octaves, I can take it to 3 or 4 octaves. I can do triplets. And I can combine the parallel motion and contrary motion to a grand scale practice run. There are about 8 pages at the very end of the book that alludes to many kind of variations to be tried.

iternabe

BTW does anyone do chromatic scale practice? When I first heard about chromatic scale, I did not quite get its usefulness. Then one day I came across this video by Paul Barton talking about using the 3-4-5 finger chromatic scale to exercise the weak fingers. That seems to make a lot of sense.

Animisha

iternabe BTW does anyone do chromatic scale practice?

When I played a piece with chromatic elements, I began each day by playing a chromatic scale, starting from a different key each time. But now that I don't play such a piece, I have dropped that habit again.

BartK

iternabe BTW does anyone do chromatic scale practice? When I first heard about chromatic scale, I did not quite get its usefulness. Then one day I came across this video by Paul Barton talking about using the 3-4-5 finger chromatic scale to exercise the weak fingers. That seems to make a lot of sense.

That exercise is not for beginners! You can hurt your hands doing 3-4-5 chromatic scales if you haven't developed enough hand flexibility.

Chromatic scales are used very prominently in romantic repertoire. It's good to know the standard fingering with 1-2-3 so that you can easily play any chromatic passage but unless you're advanced you don't really need more than that.

I say that as someone who has learned the fast chromatic fingerings and also practiced with 3-4-5 and done chromatic double-thirds. Those things are very useful if you need to play music that has these types of scales but they aren't exactly the best use of your time before that

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