Over the years, I have scaled down my work on scales. Having had a teacher for more than two years who never asked about scales contributed. Sometimes, when I want a break from my pieces, I play a couple of scales. Never scales with more than three accidentals, and minor scales only harmonic. Never contrary scales, only parallel ones.

Once upon a time it was good for me to learn these scales, but I really don't see the point to rehearse them over and over again. And I also don't see the point of torturing myself with scales in keys that I don't even play.
However, if a piece is in a key with more than three accidentals, I do check that scale, and play I IV I V I, and I IV I V7 I, just to get a feeling for the sound.

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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

    RFox ShiroKuro, yes, it does seem unfair to beginners, the point is taken and I intended no slight

    Thank you!

    but I really don't think scales are for beginners because the last thing you want to be building into your scale technique is beginner technique.

    This is interesting (the idea that scales aren't for beginners), I wonder how many teachers would agree with you.

    Your other point, about not embedding "beginner technique," could be said about almost anything we do at the piano. IMO, that's why it's important for people to work with a teacher (esp. beginners, but also players who are beyond the beginning levels).

    I know a lot of people have various restrictions (whether time, money, location, etc.) that means they can't work one-on-one with a teacher, so I know my opinion here about the importance of teachers isn't necessarily fair or realistic for many. Also, I have almost always had a teacher, and I have one right now (even though I've been playing for 25 years now), so I know I'm biased by my own experience there. /threaddrift

    Back to the topic at hand, I am also biased by my own experience, which is that I incorporated scales into my practice routine from a very early stage -- but again, I was working with a teacher. These days I almost never play them, despite believing they're valuable. 😅

      Animisha Never contrary scales, only parallel ones.

      I always loved playing scales in contrary motion! To me, that was the best part! 😃

        Another beginner perspective here. After hearing about scales practice, I've bought the Alfred book and started to figure out two octaves, hands together scales. I found them strangely enjoyable. I was doing scales (and Hanon) in my breaks etc. Without a metronome. With my self-thought technique. Getting faster and faster. And... I got pain in my hands 🙁.

        Then I thought I should learn proper technique first, before collecting more and more injuries . Subscribed Entrada (after a recommendation in this forum). To my surprise they put the scale technique in advanced section, after arpeggios, trills, octaves etc.! 🤯 So I put scales (and Hanon) on hold until I improve my technique a bit more.

          hebele Entrada

          Does this involve a teacher looking at your playing (either in real time or on video) and giving you feedback that's targeted at/for you?

              ShiroKuro no feedback. I don't think they offer any. I know a teacher would be the solution. But I cannot make the time for face to face sessions for now. And online services feel like a poor substitute.

                @hebele if you are having pain, there's probably something in your technique, the way you're holding your hands/wrists/arms that is causing you trouble. If you don't get it corrected, it may get worse.

                I don't mean to sound alarmist, but that would be my concern.

                A service like Entrada is not likely to help you figure out what you're doing wrong.

                Perhaps you could find someone who you could meet with once a month? Also, regarding online services, there are two models that might benefit you. One is where you do a live, real-time lesson. This is the best online scenario, because you can get immediate feedback and easily ask questions etc. The other model is where you send in a video and get feedback on it. This is not as good as real-time, but still would get you some feedback that's geared to you specifically.

                I highly recommend you pursue one of these options, esp. if you're having pain.

                  ShiroKuro thanks for the concern. I don't have pain anymore. And I am pretty sure it was because I was too enthusiastic and careless about scales/Hanon exercises. I am much more cautious now.

                    Ahh, ok, if your pain is gone, that is a good sign!!

                    Pallas The last thing I want to do is say something that seems to lack compassion.

                    I don't think you ever do, you are always kind! 🙂

                      RFox Scale fingering is, or should be, based on principles that don't need a book listing all the scales out. Cover the principles, they're very brief, then learn the starting finger for each scale and which tone to use the fourth finger on.

                      I disagree. While I agree that principles are the way to go when learning to play scales and can result in quicker memorization, there are multiple possible scale fingerings and the reason why we have standard fingerings is largely because of convention and not because they are the logically most efficient way to play them. That is, someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

                      See bernhard's comment here. He suggests playing F major LH scales 3214321: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756

                      Likewise, why wouldn't you play a C major scale 12341234? After all, it's likely quicker that way.

                      You could also play a C chromatic scale 123412345123

                      Given that there are many possibilities, it makes sense for a beginner to learn the standard, conventional fingering because it's not guaranteed they will come to the same conclusion otherwise.

                          ranjit someone not exposed to standard fingerings will not necessarily come up with them independently.

                          Exactly!

                          And, even if any given pianist changes fingerings later, or (of course) makes alterations that fit some specific musical context, it's very important to learn the standard fingering. That has pedagogical value in and of itself.

                          So, back to @RFox 's earlier comment about the fingering listed on the page I uploaded -- I'm not going to argue with anyone about those fingerings (for one thing, I'm not in front of a piano right now). But those are established, accepted fingerings and learning them will be of value.

                            Pallas I love having a supportive environment in which to talk about famously tricky subjects, and I'm getting a lot out of this topic.

                            Me too! 🙂

                              RFox I do apologise for any unintended hurt.

                              No hurt happened. I actually find your original post informational and your subsequently reply clear and helpful.

                                hebele Another beginner perspective here. After hearing about scales practice, I've bought the Alfred book and started to figure out two octaves, hands together scales. I found them strangely enjoyable. I was doing scales (and Hanon) in my breaks etc. Without a metronome. With my self-thought technique. Getting faster and faster. And... I got pain in my hands 🙁.

                                I too find scales and arpeggios practice not boring and often enjoyable. The reason, I think, is it allows me to focus on figuring out finger touch, movement, and tweaking those motions for better efficiency and relaxation.

                                I do use metronome. I find both slow tempo and faster tempo serves their respective and unique purpose. Also, strangely, I find hands separate still needs to be practiced even after I can play hands together well.

                                  ShiroKuro This is what the first page looks like:

                                  I don't actually feel too bad about working on something so easy, because if it's truly trivial, I'll just breeze through it until I get to my difficulty level. However, the book won't go to waste because my daughter is starting on this same scale book as well and hopefully my son will eventually use it too.

                                  --
                                  Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
                                  TIME

                                      navindra if it's truly trivial, I'll just breeze through it until I get to my difficulty level.

                                      that's a smart way to look at it. Also, if there's some aspect you've missed, this should give you a chance to acquire it.

                                        The example pages shown from the Snell book seems very literal to me. Maybe that's the reason why it has 8 books in the series?

                                        The Alfred book is much denser. Each key needed its own 2 pages because of the need to indicate fingering fully. But in term of how to play each exercise, I am not taking what's written strictly literally in term of time signature and rhythmic pattern. For example, instead of 2 octaves, I can take it to 3 or 4 octaves. I can do triplets. And I can combine the parallel motion and contrary motion to a grand scale practice run. There are about 8 pages at the very end of the book that alludes to many kind of variations to be tried.

                                        BTW does anyone do chromatic scale practice? When I first heard about chromatic scale, I did not quite get its usefulness. Then one day I came across this video by Paul Barton talking about using the 3-4-5 finger chromatic scale to exercise the weak fingers. That seems to make a lot of sense.

                                          iternabe BTW does anyone do chromatic scale practice?

                                          When I played a piece with chromatic elements, I began each day by playing a chromatic scale, starting from a different key each time. But now that I don't play such a piece, I have dropped that habit again.

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                                          ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...