Killomiter Here is a solo for you from one of the best exponents of pushing and pulling around the bass. Tal ... no one better https://fb.watch/tqa9EvC01S/

Awesome music - thanks for posting that one! Excellent exponent! That does sound excellent. Flowing and very natural.

Killomiter Here is an example of a solid groove, funk , here the Nord playing ahead of the grove to add emphasis and colour.

That's also awesome Andy. Great example - and they are excellent.

Killomiter This one is tight as the ducks bum but if you can hear Tal pushing here and occasssionally the drummer leading into the beat - Enjoy ....

LINK Youtube

I had been following davie504, and didn't know about Tal before. She's amazing. Thanks for providing the excellent examples and explaining as well Andy. And playing the music with Herbie Hancock ... indeed very special.

        iternabe
        Thank you for that excellent video - an excellent reminder of the importance of counting out loud. I'm lazy and generally don't bother, but from now on I'll make an effort to do so!

        I was extremely interested to hear how he counts triplets - 1,o,let - as somehow I'd never come across this, and it is fantastic advice.

        Also, thanks for your list of questions. Answer to all of them is yes - except that I can't sing for toffee...

          Killomiter
          The notion that the net balance of the "ebb and flow" should be zero is an interesting reminder that fluctuations go in both directions: both faster and slower.
          But in that case, as a linguist (and Italy-lover), it strongly irks me to call the practice "rubato". What is stolen is seldom returned! Call it "prestato". Or even better "concordato"! (Or answer rubato with "intensificato")

          I always like being reminded of Chopin's alleged insistence on a rock solid LH accompaniment: it goes in the same sense as my desire for structure underlying fluidity, architecture to avoid sloppiness.

          I absolutely loved all the examples you posted. And they reassured me that I might, one day, be able to play with other musicians.

              SouthPark
              Alongside Killomiter's excellent examples, you've convinced me (despite saying that you prefer to use other terms!): "pushing" and "pulling" is a great way to think of it.

                I kind of remember a "class" by Dick Hyman where he was demonstrating some of the things that happened with the development of jazz through history. And I remember of him demonstrating keeping a rock solid time with the left hand (probably stride piano) while changing the timing of the right hand, both slower, falling behind the beat, and faster, jumping ahead of the beat. Ain't gonna lie, my brain hurts when I try to figure out what Dick Hyman is doing. And his hands move so fast my eyes can't keep up. But... he is an incredible player with astounding accuracy and timing.

                iternabe Graham Fitch mentioned counting out loud. I came across another video on the same topic and the teacher demonstrated counting out loud while still being able to play musically. After trying it myself, I am convinced this can bring a lot of clarity to understanding and following the rhythm during tricky passages.

                I watched some of this video and I think it'll be very helpful as I approach a very difficult piece in terms of rhythm. Triplets against quadruplets but some notes are rests, so I have to be very precise. I do count out loud (very loudly!) when I'm dealing with difficult rhythms but but this video really clarified to me that counting out loud is an extremely beneficial learning tool!

                I'm not a fan of playing with metronome until the notes are pretty solid (and mostly as a sanity check to make sure I'm not unintentionally changing tempi in different sections) but I think this video really explains why counting aloud forces you to internalize the beat.

                  I'm not really a big fan of "counting outloud". LOL!! Seriously, I have listened to some play and do some radical variations in their tempo while doing those same radical variations with their counting. At least the metronome doesn't lie to us. 😉

                  Not saying counting outloud or using a metronome aren't useful, I think both have their place. Mostly, I think they help us to compartmentalize the music so that we know what it's supposed to sound like. And then... we can make it our own, which may or may not follow a metronome well. Useful servants. Tyranical masters.

                    Bellyman I'm not really a big fan of "counting outloud". LOL!! Seriously, I have listened to some play and do some radical variations in their tempo while doing those same radical variations with their counting. At least the metronome doesn't lie to us. 😉

                    Oh yes, I went back to the first post and if the problem is internalizing the pulse, using a metronome will help for sure! If the problem is accurate rhythms within a bar, that's when counting out loud is very useful.

                    I'm sure if my pulse was off that I'd just adjust my counting to it 😜

                      Monviso The notion that the net balance of the "ebb and flow" should be zero is an interesting reminder that fluctuations go in both directions: both faster and slower.

                      People say this but I would say reality is much more complicated. There are places where you just accelerate, and places where you just slow down. I think the only real way, unfortunately, is to listen and accurately imitate. It's like an entire rhythmic language unto itself. And you can not reduce a language to a small set of logical rules.

                      I basically never use the metronome. My teachers also have not recommended that I use it, asking me to develop my internal sense of pulse instead. To this I credit developing a better, more fluid and "real" sense of rhythm. But it might not be for everyone. It is really part of the current zeitgeist but when I look at books and recordings of the old masters especially, I seldom see the use of the metronome so advocated.

                      But you need to develop a sense of rhythm. I can play in time with a metronome if I wanted to, and that is important.

                        It's a case by case as usual. If one needs timing or rhythm or beat work ..... then some met practice, or playing with backing tracks, etc are the go.

                        Soory to be a pain but thought of another old track which played often back in the day. This is a cover to note but no this recording the Bass drum is very hard to hear but I used the snare as a rock solid beat (metronomic) it is clear to hear the bass is pushed as the original and the piano is pulling and pushing when he wants to increase and decrease the dynamic. To me this is best effect kinda also rounds out the sound issuing waves of enhanced dynamic. Keep using the snare drum to keep reference. I will shut up now - This one is important to stress pushing and pulling to juxtaposition around a steady beat, never to slow or speed up the piece. Thus rounding and phasing enhancing and to bring forward an instrument. the bass notes on the piano of of interest to us and it is clear to here both on this and the original to see the push bass note in and out when the player decides to answer the bass guitar or other way round during the peice.

                          Killomiter Soory to be a pain but thought of another old track which played often back in the day.

                          That's not a pain at all - but the opposite. That is such excellent music! Thanks for posting that one. That is excellent. The power and excellence of a group of talented people and amazing instruments - including human voice. Thanks for adding that Killomiter.