Why there are no VST with Kawai samples?

Steinway is a famous brand. Kawai isn't a high-profile brand amongst the non-piano-playing public. Steinway is more like Fender.

On TV and in films I rarely see anything but Steinway and Yamaha. I see Bechstein in old British films and more recently in The Pianist and Florence Foster Jenkins. There's a Blüthner in Iron Man.

johnstaf a Blüthner in Iron Man

as well as in Hannibal!

We can only guess why Kawai doesn't officially produce or endorse a VST with their name on it. Although, there is a Kawai EX VST kicking around, rather expensive for what it is. And, there are some independently produced Kawai VSTs found on https://www.pianobook.co.uk/instrument/pianos/ and https://freepats.zenvoid.org/Piano/acoustic-grand-piano.html.

My personal guess is that Kawai is for whatever reason uninterested in pursuing this market. Either they're unaware, or they are aware and are don't see viable commercial value, in promoting an SK-EX VST.

I think the enthusiast digital piano market skews heavily in favor of Kawai (when you consider the multitude of acoustic piano makers, AND the digital makers who just offer an unnamed Steinway sample/reference), and because of that, many more digital players know of and appreciate Kawai, and would love a high quality SK-EX VST. But perhaps Kawai thinks of this as being direct cannibalization of their main hardware DP business, especially if they were to license/approve a 3rd party VST and just end up taking some meager royalties per copy sold. "Wouldn't we lose core DP sales if many people just bought a Roland A-88 or M-Audio/Studiologic keyboard and downloaded our golden tones"? Just a guess...

SouthPark

SouthPark Kawai James --- you better answer this.

Has James found his way on here?????

Let me provide a different perspective.... I just started selling my piano libraries, and guess which one (by far) sells the best? Steinway. Does the Yamaha sell well? Yes, it sells, but not nearly like the Steinway. Does the Bosendorfer sell? Yes, but not nearly like the Steinway. Name recognition is extremely important, and I think Kawai, in terms of name recognition, ranks behind those three - so no one spends time to promote them.

But with that said, it's funny that I was just at the Kawai flagship store in Omotesando/Tokyo in a private room with a Shigeru Kawai. I sampled it for fun. What will I do with the library? I'm not sure yet. I won't sell it, but I might give it out for free if I decide to distribute it.

What do you mean no Kawai VIs. This one's kinda new and a bit spendy, but the demos I've heard are universally excellent.
https://premiersoundfactory.com/piano-premier-kawai-legend/

I shouldn't be too hard on you, I asked the same question on another forum: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/shigeru-kawai-sk-ex-anything.146761/
That thread has grown to 9 pages and referenced a number of Kawai virtual instruments, including the one referenced above.

Steve

Some manufactures, especially Steinway, do not like VST developers using their name without permission. Some don't care. I got permission from Mason & Hamlin. They do not endorse the product, but they allowed me to use the name.

HeartKeys When I tell folks about Kawai, they have no idea.

We all live in different environments, have different friends and networks, but for folks who have no pianos, have no interest in pianos, within my world, almost none know about Kawai and most all know about Steinway and Yamaha.

By “know” I mean whether they’ve heard of it… that said they seldomly know of any other brands either.

This is coming from me, who owns a Kawai, so it’s fair to say I’m not being biased here I certainly wish Kawai was more known and renowned.

johnstaf Steinway is a famous brand. Kawai isn't a high-profile brand amongst the non-piano-playing public. Steinway is more like Fender.

Gombessa I think the enthusiast digital piano market skews heavily in favor of Kawai (when you consider the multitude of acoustic piano makers, AND the digital makers who just offer an unnamed Steinway sample/reference), and because of that, many more digital players know of and appreciate Kawai, and would love a high quality SK-EX VST.

Agreed. And, it’s their acoustics I was referencing when I spoke about Kawai’s market hold. In the digital world, Kawai is a power player. In the acoustic world, they’re solid…but they haven’t yet caught up to that name-recognition/household-name status of Steinway and Yamaha. And because VSTs tend to be aimed at capturing acoustic instruments, then naturally the most popular acoustic instruments would be the ones to get sampled.

Interestingly, I think Kawai could catch up to the other brands, but I think their main issue is two-fold: a lack of wholistic focus on their prestige/history/legacy and a lack of a centralized identity.

Sadly, for better of or worse, the acoustic piano world is heavily focused on “prestige” - whether real or manufactured. If you don’t have the omnipresence of a Steinway or Yamaha, you need to lean into the factors that makes your brand special. Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Bluthner, and many others did it for years - focusing on posturing themselves as the savoir-vivre/cognoscenti’s piano, leaning into their history, nationalistic overtones, unique colors/tones/timbres/woods/methods/blah, blah, blah lol. Kawai really only seems to do this these days with the Shigeru Kawai line. Meanwhile, their regular main Kawai line - the one they push the most - seems to have been relegated to averageness. The regular Kawai website seems looks plain and bland, like a Target website. Their in-person advertising is equally tepid.

Also, for many years, most of the piano brands kept everything under a single names. They separated the levels of their instruments via model names and numbers (e.g.Model D vs Model A, CFX versus GC, 290 Imperial versus 200). Even with Yamaha, another piano maker who also does digitals, everything is centralized - there’s just plain Yamaha. You want luxury, you got CFX. You don’t, you go GBK1. With their digitals, same difference: luxury is Avantgrands, top of the line is Clavinova, then there’s everything else. But the pride, prestige, & the name recognition of the Yamaha brand, still carries regardless and is central on everything. Meanwhile, with Kawai, there’s K. Kawai (for Koichi the father) but only on their grands, there’s plain old Kawai on their digitals and uprights, and both these lines seem to lean into plainness with how they are marketed. Then there’s the luxury Shigeru Kawai brand which gets all the prestige, but has a completely different logo (that doesn’t even look like Kawai). They roll out the red carpet for that line, but the other Kawai lines are kinda meh. There’s even some slightly confusing overlap with the naming, as there are plain EXs, but also SK-EXs. It’s too much.

I’d love this to be centralized.

Just make it plain old Kawai. Or combine the two: Koichi Shigeru KAWAI. Something. But they need a central brand and a central identity. And the entire brand needs to be wrapped up in history, prestige, and beauty. Look at how Bosendorfer associates themselves with Vienna, and using the finest Austrian wood, and being the heart of the Viennese people and ties itself deeply to the culture. Sad as it is, the classical worlds eats things like that up. I’d love a centralized Kawai that leans into that, too. Build the mythos. Tell me the wood is straight from the forests of Mount Fuji . Hype up the story and mythos around the entire brand, the history, the culture, and the prestige, the way they do with the SK line. And, of course, start throwing some instruments at the competition circuit and the concert halls, the way the other brands do.

The top instruments need to be slathered with the same luxury and prestige they reserve for the SK line. And start pitching them with the same pretentiousness the other brands use lol. And of course, there would be the lower-tier and affordable models. But do it how the other brands do it: get you in their dealer house with their prestigiousness, and if you can’t afford their $200,000 instrument, they take you into the separate rooms with the mid-tier, entry-level, uprights, and digitals. In that way, they maintain the “prestige” factor, but still don’t lose out on all customers.

Pantonality What do you mean no Kawai VIs. This one's kinda new and a bit spendy, but the demos I've heard are universally excellent.
https://premiersoundfactory.com/piano-premier-kawai-legend/

I shouldn't be too hard on you, I asked the same question on another forum: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/shigeru-kawai-sk-ex-anything.146761/
That thread has grown to 9 pages and referenced a number of Kawai virtual instruments, including the one referenced above.

Steve

Great point.

I think it’s more fair to say “there aren’t many Kawai VSTs”, and/or, there aren’t as many as the VSTs for the other, more well-known brands.

There’s definitely some. They just don’t get the kind of attention or have the kind of numbers as, say, a Steinway or Yamaha centered VST.

dore_m Let me provide a different perspective.... I just started selling my piano libraries, and guess which one (by far) sells the best? Steinway. Does the Yamaha sell well? Yes, it sells, but not nearly like the Steinway. Does the Bosendorfer sell? Yes, but not nearly like the Steinway. Name recognition is extremely important, and I think Kawai, in terms of name recognition, ranks behind those three - so no one spends time to promote them.

Great context from an actual VST maker. And I think the same trend seems to play out with other VST makers as well.

Taushi

Kawai’s logo/ font also does a disservice to its quality, from an eyeball test. It looks worse than generic to me. I’d also say some other fonts, such as C. Bechstein also look generic, but their gold color looks excellent, as well as that crown thing.

And Yamaha’s font is pretty bland as well but it’s also gold and the logo looks pretty cool to me. At least compared to Kawai’s nonexistent one

WieWaldi The Premier Sound factory library I referenced above is a very professional VI being sold for pretty serious money ($250 ain't bargain basement pricing) and it incorporates some technologies that are unique and extend midi technology. It's sampled at 96 kHz 24 bit and a "key striking device" was used in the sampling process. There is also a process to exceed the maximum velocity wall (midi velocity of 127). I have copied in text from the web site that explains this is more detail.

"As you know the maximum velocity of the standard MIDI is 127. However, if the sound of a real piano played with full force is assigned to 127, it may frequently occur depending on the type of MIDI keyboard, resulting in a strangely stiff and unnatural piano sound. On the other hand, if “moderate strength” is assigned to 127 in anticipation of this, you will feel like you need a stronger touch, especially in classical music.

KAWAI Legend proudly cleared this problem. Regardless of the keyboard, if it has aftertouch after detecting a keystroke of velocity 127, our patented Velocity+ (VelocityPlus) feature engages a new functionality that effectively achieves a new maximum velocity of 254(127+127). This is done by detecting an overflow of velocity intensities of 127 by aftertouch (within 20 msec) and replaces the original 127 velocity sound with an extremely natural “limit-breaking sound” which is played according to the overflow degree. This product is equipped with three additional limit-breaking velocity layers after exceeding 127. It is also possible to monitor the value of Velocity+ in real-time.

I don't own this library yet, but the demos sound extraordinary. I plan to acquire this at some point and hope there may be a Black Friday sale. At $250 it costs more than the Garritan CFX but with the extra velocity layers it could easily be worth it.

Steve

WieWaldi I am not involved in any way with Premier Sound Factory. I asked them about the extended velocity feature. It uses the after touch signal to bring in the additional velocity layers within a matter of about 20 milliseconds, but I didn't ask if the feature was polyphonic. 20 milliseconds is plenty fast given the complexity of a piano's sound envelope. My guess as to why this wasn't done earlier is the requirement for Kontakt 6. I don't honestly know but suspect the capability was added in that product release. I have Kontakt 6 but none of the libraries I own requires it. Regarding the demos I would suggest going to the VI-Control thread I referenced above because a number of folks there bought the library and produced recordings that exceed what the company itself was capable of. I don't know the reason why that would be, it just is. Whether the library is worth the price they're asking I don't know, as I said above I'm waiting for a Black Friday or other sale because I don't really need another piano library. I respect Kawai and have played and greatly enjoyed some Shigerus (SK7 being the biggest) but not a SK-EX.