It's ok. Reading this post here pretty much sums it up for everything.

POST

Taushi I don't think "intermediate" level has to be the final stop

And -- nobody said that that 'intermediate' level 'needs' (or needed) to be the 'final stop'.

It was you that 'assumed' it.

And 'level' is actually something you can't really lay a finger on in piano plus music --- because the abilities extends in various different directions in the music/piano 'space', and people are born with different 'potentials' -- which is hard to put a finger on too - as we can't measure it or know it. Everyone is 'different' - and they have different life 'opportunities' and environments, brain wiring, physiques etc. And once again - not everyone is 'obsessed' with needing 'others' to reach 'highest levels' in piano plus music. Anyone that wants to learn and play etc --- they can read etc for themselves, and go their own path.

    PianoMonk "B on the B"

    I need that too... but in my case it should be "Blues" on the "Biano". Or should that be "Bractice" on the "Bench"? 😂

      Whenever Ive looked into the history of recognised greats of their instrument of choice I've noticed most offen some recurring themes. The first is coming from a musical family, with often both parents reasonabley accomplished musicians. The second is being recognised as something special even before mid teenage years.
      And yes they go onto a life of dedication to their art. To me this raises the question of are they special because of that early environment or because of genetics? Personally I believe it's genetics. I believe people are capable of achieving anything they set their mind on, with one exception. And that is the Arts. You either have it or you don't. Yes you can achieve a certain level of proficiency if you work at it, but for the majority there is a ceiling that no matter how hard you work at it it's not possible to reach the level of greatness that sets that small number of individuals apart.
      This thought is not to discourage anyone, the exact opposite. Be realistic in your goals and enjoy the journey.

      Sydney Australia
      Retired part-time piano technician

        @"Taushi"#p12243

        I'm just balancing. So that it's not one-sided. Balancing - different perspectives/opinions.

        @"Taushi"#p12243 Also, it’s very easy to find someone’s level from listening to them. When one actually has expertise, has studied piano properly for years, and actually put in the work, one is capable of delineating in that way.

        You won't know somebody's actual potential. You can't know it unless you have some sort of future DNA and full physiology etc probing technology, plus other 'advanced' knowledge that we currently don't have.

        And 'level' is impossible to gauge overall ... for those reasons previously mentioned.

        JohnCW but for the majority there is a ceiling that no matter how hard you work at it it's not possible to reach the level of greatness that sets that small number of individuals apart.

        True. And each person is different. So everybody has their own path or potential paths in life.

          JohnCW I believe people are capable of achieving anything they set their mind on, with one exception. And that is the Arts.

          I agree with you, however, respectfully, I'd like to add one other exception: rhythm. I have personally met people who were absolutely "rhythm-deaf", to the point where it was almost baffling how they managed to put each foot in front of the other evenly. And that was not for lack of trying, both on their part and the part of the teacher trying to teach the basics. I'm not even talking about syncopation or other "intricate" patterns. It was simply impossible for them to play a rest at the beginning of a measure, no matter how often it was explained to them that they should not be skipped.

          If I hadn't met such people personally, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you... but I just wanted to throw this additional exception in 🙂

          And also, I realize this is only a side remark that doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand 🙂

          • TC3 likes this.

            Hi Sophia

            In the late 1980s I replaced a guitarist in a Jazz trio, and the bass player told me that whilst the guitarist was a very good player in many ways, he had a weird rhythmic sense. They had spent quite a few months rehearsing and had failed to get one song completed to a high enough standard to play at a gig.

            The guitarist's problem was that he tapped his foot to keep time (as a lot of people do), however he didn't tap the beat (i.e. 4 to the bar or whatever), he tapped the rhythm of the melody. This meant he was forever going out of time with the bass and drums. So whilst he could play clever solos and intricate chord patterns on the guitar, it was all wasted as he couldn't keep time, which is quite a unique handicap in my experience.

            So I replaced him on Piano, and whilst I'm not a proper Jazz Pianist and my improvising skills are very limited, I can normally keep time.

            Again, sorry, off topic but it shows how different we all are.

            Cheers

            Simon
            All round average Jazz, Blues & Rock player.
            Currently working towards ABRSM grade 8.

            Right, this girl was not able to tap the beat either. At one point I asked her to play the melody on her guitar while I held her foot and tapped it for her. She actually struggled against it to match her (non-correct) playing 😂
            And as you said, her playing itself wasn't all that bad at all.

            I looked it up yesterday and apparently, beat deafness is real and affects 3% of mankind!

            Yep, I've known a couple of folks like this too, huge music lovers but couldn't find the beat if it was hitting them in the face at a regular tempo. 😃 It makes me wonder if enough ear training and practice would overcome it eventually.

            I do think this is relevant to non-classical piano, so much of which is played with other folks in bands and such. Even the solo non-classical piano is usually played at a very regular rhythm, with the left hand acting as the rhythm section. I find it much more useful to play with a metronome or drum track (or my live-in drummer!) when I'm playing non-classical than if I were playing classical. That could just be me, though ...

            Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.

            Indeed the piano accommodates all. It can ... like a lot of instruments be used solo ... or collaboratively ... with other instruments.

            The power of music.

            I'll present a different perspective on the idea that lots of different instruments can be played solo. Actually I think in practice terms, ONLY the piano can do this, and is the very reason for attracting me to it.
            How long can you play drums or bass on your own? A guitarist who sings actually has two instruments going. Yes truely great guitarist like Chet Atkins can play a guitar as a complete instrument. But that level is so high, and beyond the vast majority. This I know from years of trying. The piano and its relative the piano accordion are the only two instruments that I can think of that allow the average person to play solo and sound somewhat complete (for want of a better word). The piano is also the easiest instrument to play a recognised piece of music on, even if it is just a simple single melody. Doubt that, see how long it takes to musically play 'twinkle' on a flute or violin.

            Sydney Australia
            Retired part-time piano technician

              JohnCW ONLY the piano can do this, and is the very reason for attracting me to it.

              Funny you should mention that... it's definitely one huge reason that attracted me to it too. Mind you, my second most favourite instrument is still the classical guitar. There too it's possible to play a melody, baseline and even chords all in one. But you are right that it takes quite a bit of practice. But then again so does piano 🙂

              Funny enough my husband's favourite instruments are flamenco guitar, organ and bagpipes. Come to think of it, all those are basically an orchestra-in-one as well, at least they all sound great when played solo (ok bagpipes is an acquired taste that, well, I didn't quite acquire I'm afraid).

              I sense a theme developing here 😃

                  An erhu can definitely be played solo. It is amazing and super expressive to me, which is the reason for me learning that one. The bowed string sound ... somewhat violin-like ... and can bend the pitch, and pitch slide with pretty good control, and vibrato, and change volume on sustained note, and make other interesting sounds. The erhu can definitely sing and sound excellent by itself. The erhu will usually take quite a while to learn that's for sure. It's nowhere near as intuitive to get note sequences like a piano type keyboard. The piano type keyboard is a thumbs up.

                  But I know what JCW means though.

                  15 days later

                  diretonic

                  Just to inject some of my own thinking into this topic, what most people call classical music is actually the most popular music of all time. Any of the composers who are lumped into the very sloppy category of "classical music" were all revolutionaries, rule breakers, and often improvisers.

                  People who do not explore many genres of music will not understand that the rift today between popular music and so called classical music is actually a relatively recent thing.

                  Every genre of music you explore is going to give you musical tools. Furthermore, if you are making music from playing, which is what I believe the definition of a professional should be, then your paycheck will be directly related to your versatility.

                    JohnCW

                    Sophia Funny you should mention that... it's definitely one huge reason that attracted me to it too. Mind you, my second most favourite instrument is still the classical guitar. There too it's possible to play a melody, baseline and even chords all in one. But you are right that it takes quite a bit of practice. But then again so does piano 🙂

                    The piano is ideal for understanding how music works. This is the reason why the majority of great conductors were keyboard players. It is true that piano can do everything at the same time. You get beautiful melodies, wonderful basslines and whole harmonic structures.

                    Solo instruments give you a chance to explore melodies, tuning and many other things that a piano can't do. I think combining the piano with a string instrument, wind instrument or singing is ideal.

                        PianoMonk Bill once said in an interview with Marion McPartland,

                        I liked Marion McPartland! I liked her radio show! I liked that she had people on from plenty of different genres and they talked, played together, played for each other. It was a nice show.

                        It was a bit humorous that she poked fun at not "looking the part" of an accomplished jazz pianist, and she was accomplished. Though I never met her in person, she also gave the impression of being a delightful person and her guests seemed to "bloom" in the stage that she set. I only remember a few of her guests but I know there were many jazz greats.

                        I regret that I did not even know of her until her very late years and it feels like so many of the great jazz minds have passed on, some way too soon. I know there are good players today. But I don't find most to be terribly original, with many seeming to want to be "just like xxx". It's one reason I don't particularly aspire to be just like anyone else. Sure, learning a lick or phrase is good, almost like learning a new vocabulary word. But I don't much care to repeat the Gettysburg address ad nauseam.

                            Bellyman with many seeming to want to be "just like xxx". It's one reason I don't particularly aspire to be just like anyone else.

                            I know from the professional musicians in my life that the biggest insult you can give them is tell them that they sound just like so and so.

                            They don't want to sound like so and so. They have developed their own style and only want to sound like themselves 😁