Learning non-classical piano

TC3 · 2024-07-04T01:05:45+00:00

Over years of lurking at various discussion forums, I've seen many variations of the following exchange: Q: "I want to learn piano, but not classical piano....

SouthPark

Taushi Teach a student basic fundamental theory - scales, note values, keys, keyboard layout, time signatures
Teach a student to read sheet music

Plus listening exercises, and listening to pitch sequences and translating it to keyboard exercises (developing hearing and music memory), and also intervals/hearing training, and some pedal exercises, and finger sequencing problem-solving exercises, and chord work (how it 'fits' with melodies, and how to select/detect/determine workable chords). With some composition theory to come at some stage later as well.

As for the original post at the start of this thread ... regarding the person hypothetically wanting to have piano lessons purely for some other genre ..... eg. pop etc. People most likely assume that lessons will all involve beginning studies and playing of 'classical music'. And that probably is the norm ..... traditional.

So the person just needs to communicate with teachers, which might involve the teacher customising the course to suit. Or the teacher may know other teachers that suits the request, or meets the request nicely etc.

And of course ... if they can't find anybody ... then use online tutorials until there is (if any) a time where a workable solution is gained.

JohnCW

The original question was can someone learn to PLAY the piano without going down the 'classical' route. By "play" I take that to mean achieve a solid intermediate level. The answer to that straightforward question is an indisputable yes.

Somewhere along the line the issue became can someone become a piano virtuoso. With some of the suggestions I've read, spending hours practicing exercises etc. reckon most people won't even reach the play level, giving it all away in boredom.

SouthPark

JohnCW The answer to that straightforward question is an indisputable yes.

It indeed is not disputable. The straight forward answer is yes.

Even if somebody does become a virtuoso, it doesn't necessarily mean they have achieved and learned everything 'they' wanted in music, composition, etc.

For example ... they may be hoping to have wanted selected skills of composing or the thinking or feeling or life experience of others, which they haven't been able to acquire ... because everyone is different ... thought processes, brain wiring and processes, physique, environment etc -- all leading to different potentials, even when a group of people from the same baby age were put on the same program -- all will be potentially excellent in their ways, but with differences. Some might not be able to do what the other does ----- because of the mental, physique etc etc differences.

So ... appreciating the variety is just great.

JohnCW piano virtuoso.

If virtuosos are happy with where they are at, then that's excellent. That is good.

And also, I reckon that - as long as piano playing folks are enjoying the (cliche again) 'journey' of piano and music, then that is good. And even if they don't enjoy it - then sure - everybody is different - and it's not compulsory to learn music or play pianos or other musical instruments in the first place. Although - we do know that many kids etc got forced into it, or at least some country or countries were 'encouraging' it - with incentives etc -- in the past that is.

Just because we play music instruments and reached some level - it doesn't mean we're better than anybody that does not play any music instrument or reached any level. Not that anybody said that - but - just mentioning - just in case.

Especially keeping in mind the comment made earlier somewhere - about some under-privileged people living in some parts of the world without enough assistance etc (money etc) - having huge hidden potential, where they could run rings around all of us combined together (in music, piano and other areas) if they are fortunate enough to have the same financial etc opportunities as us.

Taushi

JohnCW

I introduced the advanced/virtuoso element to the conversation because I emphatically believe that one can not only learn to "play" the piano without going the classical route, but that one could learn to play at the highest levels. I don't think "intermediate" level has to be the final stop - I think one can go all the way through. That said, introducing the "advanced/virtuoso" level to the conversation was not a dismissal of the original scope of the conversation. It was meant to be an emphatic agreement, and an encouraging addendum. If one wishes to learn only to the intermediate level and stop there - that's valid, too. There are many styles and genres where an overabundance of technique may not necessarily be necessary. My only suggestion was that I don't think the scope of the conversation went far enough - and that, indeed, we have both A.) demonstrable examples and B.) proven methodology by which someone can achieve advanced playing and even virtuosity without ever having studied classical.

That said, exercises aren't the only way. Again, we can look at someone like Tatum, who I thought was a wonderful addition to the conversation. No, he didn't spend hours practicing formal exercises, but he DID spend hours playing each day, and he got his practice and honed his abilities through that method. He spent hours at home playing along to piano roll recordings, emulating what he was hearing - and in some cases emulating piano roll recordings that had actually been made by two pianists instead of one - that is a form of exercise. In much the same way the great singers of 20th Century popular music didn't study at conservatories via doing formal exercises, but rather developed their skills in church or in the nightclub, or at home in front of the radio - hours of practice weekly still went in to the development of the skill.

Also, I think that if someone wished to pursue advanced/virtuoso playing, they wouldn't get bored from the work of it. People who have, not merely the desire, but the passion to pursue excellence know that there's work involved. And it's hard work. And it sucks. Whether it's the classical students who spends hours at conservatory going through Hanon, or the people like Tatum who spent hours in the club practicing-through-playing, excellence requires hard work. But they push through, because the achievement - when their abilities begin to develop and progress - is it's own reward, and the overall accomplishment of the level they want to reach is the highest reward.

SouthPark

It's ok. Reading this post here pretty much sums it up for everything.

POST

Taushi I don't think "intermediate" level has to be the final stop

And -- nobody said that that 'intermediate' level 'needs' (or needed) to be the 'final stop'.

It was you that 'assumed' it.

And 'level' is actually something you can't really lay a finger on in piano plus music --- because the abilities extends in various different directions in the music/piano 'space', and people are born with different 'potentials' -- which is hard to put a finger on too - as we can't measure it or know it. Everyone is 'different' - and they have different life 'opportunities' and environments, brain wiring, physiques etc. And once again - not everyone is 'obsessed' with needing 'others' to reach 'highest levels' in piano plus music. Anyone that wants to learn and play etc --- they can read etc for themselves, and go their own path.

Simonb

Hi TC3

Well I've been lurking here for a while and finally here's my first post.

I'm an example of someone who after an initial short (maybe 6 lessons) classical period as a child went down the non-classical route for the next 20+ years. And now another 30 years later I'm doing both (again).

To answer the initial question directly, as I think most others have said, no you don't need to study classical to play non-classical. Though I obviously haven't read the whole thread - 199 posts! I think there are benefits to learning to play scales etc. Good technique is good technique whatever you play. If you're trying to do a flashy run in a Jazz piece if you haven't learnt the 'thumb under' technique the run is going to have gaps in it.

I think classical technique has helped my non-classical playing, but there are elements in non-classical that studying classical won't give you. The most obvious thing being that you can't play in a Pop/Rock/Blues/Jazz band and be reliant on sheet music. In all the various amateur bands I've played In (about 15 over 40+ years) nobody I played with used a fully notated score.

I'm not a great improviser, but I rarely play the same thing exactly the same way each time, and in fact I'd find it horribly restricting to have to play things as written out, in exactly the same way in non-classical context. That's why I've played non-classical more than classical, as there is a freedom to change a chord voicing, inversion, fill or rhythmic device on the spur of the moment that gives me a thrill I don't get with classical music.

I'm not saying non-classical is better, it's not, it's different. In fact on a technical level the fact that I've been able to play in lots of bands over the decades but have done virtually nothing in terms of classical recitals (I've played at my teachers last year and this year) says to me that refining a good classical technique is much more difficult that being able to hammer out a rock song on the Piano.

Anyway enough of my rambling, just a few thoughts of mine.
Somehow I missed that Jools Holland interview. Thank you for sharing. I just watched it from start to finish.

Cheers

PianoMonk

So, TC3.... 12 days and 200 posts later....
Did you get all that? All set? Good to go?

TC3

PianoMonk I have been reading religiously! 😃

PianoMonk

TC3 Some pretty deep stuff, eh? Unfortunately all that reading is no substitute for butt on the bench time. And, "B on the B" is something I need more of. So, off I go.

Sophia

PianoMonk "B on the B"

I need that too... but in my case it should be "Blues" on the "Biano". Or should that be "Bractice" on the "Bench"? 😂

JohnCW

Whenever Ive looked into the history of recognised greats of their instrument of choice I've noticed most offen some recurring themes. The first is coming from a musical family, with often both parents reasonabley accomplished musicians. The second is being recognised as something special even before mid teenage years.
And yes they go onto a life of dedication to their art. To me this raises the question of are they special because of that early environment or because of genetics? Personally I believe it's genetics. I believe people are capable of achieving anything they set their mind on, with one exception. And that is the Arts. You either have it or you don't. Yes you can achieve a certain level of proficiency if you work at it, but for the majority there is a ceiling that no matter how hard you work at it it's not possible to reach the level of greatness that sets that small number of individuals apart.
This thought is not to discourage anyone, the exact opposite. Be realistic in your goals and enjoy the journey.

SouthPark

@"Taushi"#p12243

I'm just balancing. So that it's not one-sided. Balancing - different perspectives/opinions.

@"Taushi"#p12243 Also, it’s very easy to find someone’s level from listening to them. When one actually has expertise, has studied piano properly for years, and actually put in the work, one is capable of delineating in that way.

You won't know somebody's actual potential. You can't know it unless you have some sort of future DNA and full physiology etc probing technology, plus other 'advanced' knowledge that we currently don't have.

And 'level' is impossible to gauge overall ... for those reasons previously mentioned.

JohnCW but for the majority there is a ceiling that no matter how hard you work at it it's not possible to reach the level of greatness that sets that small number of individuals apart.

True. And each person is different. So everybody has their own path or potential paths in life.

Sophia

JohnCW I believe people are capable of achieving anything they set their mind on, with one exception. And that is the Arts.

I agree with you, however, respectfully, I'd like to add one other exception: rhythm. I have personally met people who were absolutely "rhythm-deaf", to the point where it was almost baffling how they managed to put each foot in front of the other evenly. And that was not for lack of trying, both on their part and the part of the teacher trying to teach the basics. I'm not even talking about syncopation or other "intricate" patterns. It was simply impossible for them to play a rest at the beginning of a measure, no matter how often it was explained to them that they should not be skipped.

If I hadn't met such people personally, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you... but I just wanted to throw this additional exception in 🙂

And also, I realize this is only a side remark that doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand 🙂

Simonb

Hi Sophia

In the late 1980s I replaced a guitarist in a Jazz trio, and the bass player told me that whilst the guitarist was a very good player in many ways, he had a weird rhythmic sense. They had spent quite a few months rehearsing and had failed to get one song completed to a high enough standard to play at a gig.

The guitarist's problem was that he tapped his foot to keep time (as a lot of people do), however he didn't tap the beat (i.e. 4 to the bar or whatever), he tapped the rhythm of the melody. This meant he was forever going out of time with the bass and drums. So whilst he could play clever solos and intricate chord patterns on the guitar, it was all wasted as he couldn't keep time, which is quite a unique handicap in my experience.

So I replaced him on Piano, and whilst I'm not a proper Jazz Pianist and my improvising skills are very limited, I can normally keep time.

Again, sorry, off topic but it shows how different we all are.

Cheers

Sophia

Right, this girl was not able to tap the beat either. At one point I asked her to play the melody on her guitar while I held her foot and tapped it for her. She actually struggled against it to match her (non-correct) playing 😂
And as you said, her playing itself wasn't all that bad at all.

I looked it up yesterday and apparently, beat deafness is real and affects 3% of mankind!

TC3

Yep, I've known a couple of folks like this too, huge music lovers but couldn't find the beat if it was hitting them in the face at a regular tempo. 😃 It makes me wonder if enough ear training and practice would overcome it eventually.

I do think this is relevant to non-classical piano, so much of which is played with other folks in bands and such. Even the solo non-classical piano is usually played at a very regular rhythm, with the left hand acting as the rhythm section. I find it much more useful to play with a metronome or drum track (or my live-in drummer!) when I'm playing non-classical than if I were playing classical. That could just be me, though ...

SouthPark

Indeed the piano accommodates all. It can ... like a lot of instruments be used solo ... or collaboratively ... with other instruments.

The power of music.

JohnCW

I'll present a different perspective on the idea that lots of different instruments can be played solo. Actually I think in practice terms, ONLY the piano can do this, and is the very reason for attracting me to it.
How long can you play drums or bass on your own? A guitarist who sings actually has two instruments going. Yes truely great guitarist like Chet Atkins can play a guitar as a complete instrument. But that level is so high, and beyond the vast majority. This I know from years of trying. The piano and its relative the piano accordion are the only two instruments that I can think of that allow the average person to play solo and sound somewhat complete (for want of a better word). The piano is also the easiest instrument to play a recognised piece of music on, even if it is just a simple single melody. Doubt that, see how long it takes to musically play 'twinkle' on a flute or violin.

Sophia

JohnCW ONLY the piano can do this, and is the very reason for attracting me to it.

Funny you should mention that... it's definitely one huge reason that attracted me to it too. Mind you, my second most favourite instrument is still the classical guitar. There too it's possible to play a melody, baseline and even chords all in one. But you are right that it takes quite a bit of practice. But then again so does piano 🙂

Funny enough my husband's favourite instruments are flamenco guitar, organ and bagpipes. Come to think of it, all those are basically an orchestra-in-one as well, at least they all sound great when played solo (ok bagpipes is an acquired taste that, well, I didn't quite acquire I'm afraid).

I sense a theme developing here 😃

GaryD

JohnCW

Sophia Funny you should mention that... it's definitely one huge reason that attracted me to it too. Mind you, my second most favourite instrument is still the classical guitar. There too it's possible to play a melody, baseline and even chords all in one. But you are right that it takes quite a bit of practice. But then again so does piano 🙂

The piano is ideal for understanding how music works. This is the reason why the majority of great conductors were keyboard players. It is true that piano can do everything at the same time. You get beautiful melodies, wonderful basslines and whole harmonic structures.

Solo instruments give you a chance to explore melodies, tuning and many other things that a piano can't do. I think combining the piano with a string instrument, wind instrument or singing is ideal.

SouthPark

An erhu can definitely be played solo. It is amazing and super expressive to me, which is the reason for me learning that one. The bowed string sound ... somewhat violin-like ... and can bend the pitch, and pitch slide with pretty good control, and vibrato, and change volume on sustained note, and make other interesting sounds. The erhu can definitely sing and sound excellent by itself. The erhu will usually take quite a while to learn that's for sure. It's nowhere near as intuitive to get note sequences like a piano type keyboard. The piano type keyboard is a thumbs up.

But I know what JCW means though.

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