I haven't seen any non-classical teachers who can teach piano technique to the same depth that a high level classical pianist (say piano professor or a talented doctorate in piano performance) can. I've exclusively sought out those teachers
Learning non-classical piano
Although, having said that, I had two jazz teachers, and I don't think either of them were very good teachers!
I think a determined beginner could make quite a bit of headway with blues, rock/pop and - to an extent - jazz without having go through the rigours, and most likely years of classical training. Having a good ear would help, accelerating progress and perhaps circumventing the need for ātheoryā where self-discovery could become an effective substitute for āwhat worksā. Emphasis on determined, of course. Hours upon hours upon years.
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That's the thing ... it's a case of we and who's army (?) that gives us some sort of power etc to seriously say that if you start here, then you're going to be 'limited' ... worse off etc. What do 'we' want to prove or achieve by having everyone agree that starting with course 'X' is necessary. And is it necessary for them? Or is it the 's' word thing again ... superiority compl...?
I personally don't reckon that everyone playing piano actually cares if they don't delve into so-called 'repertoire' in all genres, and all levels.
Once somebody develops 'adequately' (which is relative) - they will be unstoppable in their area(s) already. And piano music even in one or more area(s) is limitless already.
Basically ..... a 'minimum but substantial' (which is relative too) setup for someone ... anyone ... will set them up for life. And they will be unstoppable, and will give a most excellent account of themselves in music and on piano. Any piano. Anywhere ... and any time.
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ShiroKuro I had two jazz teachers, and I don't think either of them were very good teachers!
I think that superb performers aren't necessarily great teachers. And some fantastic teachers aren't necessarily world class players. Of course there are a lucky few who excel at both, but it's not a given
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I can understand what some people mean. And this is good information ... as in how important is it to become adequately 'good' at piano and music? For self enjoyment purely? For work? For some other reason (for showing off? ... example only). Or any combo?
Just like how the world is often attempting to unite people ... and aiming for equality ... and seems to be a bit better these days as compared with the 'older' days ... you can certainly see that there are still particular mentalities ... in some areas. Piano area for example. Particularly 'classical' piano area. But also --- also got to watch out for the 'other' side as well -- as in there will be 'some' from the other side that think they're so good - and with their own behaviour, with nothing to do - and have a go at stirring the purely 'classical music' folks for some reason.
Obviously - with piano - you got to just start somewhere. That's the foot-in-door thing. And teachers etc have to choose examples for students to study/play. And while hand and finger exercises etc etc is certainly important for playing piano (obviously) -- students will certainly be asked to study/play selected music. So --- it's just going to be up to teacher and student to work together to see if they can have a plan to get to where they want to go. If no plan -- then the student just needs to keep on looking for one, such as communicate with a different teacher. And if cost/time etc is a constraint - then sometimes there is not much you can do. In life -- it's known that there are lots of things we can't reach due to constraints. Depends on circumstances/situation - which is different from one person to another.
And also must think and know about --- there are/will be people out there - such as living in for example poverty - and may see pianos and hear pianos and music, but don't have their chance to learn/study piano/music etc -- and their base potential might actually be incredible, such that if they 'were' given opportunities - under different circumstances - they would run rings around us/you in playing piano and music and composition etc.
And while I was mentioned incredible base potential (as as example) -------- we, as being good people of the planet -- don't have a requirement for anybody to need to have incredible potential for learning and playing and enjoying piano and music. And that is very important for remembering as well. Basically - we shouldn't aim to be stuck-up and up ourselves with piano and music etc.
PianoMonk Tim Richards - Exploring Jazz Piano 1 and 2
Mark Levine - Jazz Theory
Oscar Peterson - Jazz Piano for the Young Pianist (if you can find it).
BTW, have been looking these up a bit.
The Tim Richards presupposes grade 4 ability, according to their website. He does have a Beginning Jazz Piano book too, maybe that would be closer, I don't see a grade recommendation.
The Levine is for "intermediate to advanced" students.
The Peterson sounds promising! I'll see if I can find a used copy.
Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.
THis article talks about the different strategies, a little something for everyone.
https://riversidemusicstudios.com/2021/03/do-i-have-to-learn-classical
Interestingly, I pretty sure most of my blues and boogie heroes used method 3!
BTW, I did actually start with classical. I only had a smattering of formal lessons, mostly self-taught, but I was working with the RCM and ABRSM syllabi and was playing pretty comfortably at grade 4 or so before I switched over to non-classical stuff (at least for the time being - who knows what I'll do in the future!). I don't regret spending that time on classical but I sometimes think I'd be farther along doing what I really want if I had moved to the non-classical stuff sooner.
Enthusiastic but mediocre amateur.
If you donāt have any desire to play classical music, then youāre wasting your time studying classical piano. There are many capable, world-changing musicians - including pianists or piano playing musicians - who never studied classical music. Contrary to the ideas many in that field have, classical music is not the be-all-end-all of music.
If you wish to play piano, but arenāt particularly moved by classical music, youād be doing yourself a big favor by just studying THEORY and TECHNIQUE more than anything. And you can get that, sans classical studying. There are plenty of theory books and theory teachers out there. And contrary to what many advanced classical pianists would have you believe, the technique of a virtuoso is not some endless collective of things. You only have ten fingers, and thereās only so much you can do with them. A virtuosoās technique is primarily scales/runs/fingerwork - learning to move the fingers up and down and in any combination at high speeds, double notes (seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, etc.), octaves, chords, leaps, being able to do these things in any order, and coordinating the two hands to be able to do these things in conjunction and independently. Thereās actually not a lot to piano technique - the challenging part is the creative ways great composers, arrangers, and instrumentalists use the very basic foundational fundamentals, and the speed at which they combine them to create music.
Famously, Liszt developed what many regard as either the greatest technique of all time or one of the greatest techniques of all times - by simply practicing the fundamentals: scales, passagework/runs/filigrees/cadenzas, double notes, octaves, chords, leaps. He learnt to do all these things at extremely high levels, interchangeably, in any order, in any pattern, in any combination, with the two hands operating in conjunction and independently. Thatās how Liszt went from the Czerny/Beethoven/Mozart standard of technique, to the standard of technique that ultimately bore his name, and, quite frankly, was never surpassed by anyone after him.
Now, yes, Liszt started in what we would consider classical, but, unlike any other composer before him, he, and the other Romantics, led a charge to standardize classical technique in a way that extracted it from the music, and really broke it down. That focus on technique as itās own entity led to the Liszt exercises, the Isidor Philipp exercises, and, perhaps the greatest of them all: the Hanons, where, like never before, the arsenal of any virtuoso was broken down to its absolute fundamentals, separate from the music. Theoretically, since all of these things have been standardized and captured in minute detail - one could achieve virtuosity, without ever playing classical music.
By learning theory, technique, and applying it to the genre of oneās choice - one could become a virtuoso pianist, yet never have focused or studied classical music.
And thereās plenty of very advanced music in jazz, blues, and in modern/20th Century/avant-garde/21st-Century repertoire that an advanced pianist can play.
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Now, if oneās goal is to reach the absolute heights of piano techniqueā¦then perhaps one might desire to focus on classical music. But only because of the repertoire.
Should the very most advanced playing be oneās desire, there arenāt many other genres that contain music as advanced as classical music, from a technical point of view. Thereās nothing in any other genre, of the difficulty of Gaspard de la Nuit, or the 1838 Transcendental Etudes, or the Chopin etudes, or Rachmaninoffās Second Sonata or his Third Concerto, or Islamey, etc., etc., etc. When I think of even the most difficult pieces in blues, jazz, or in modern genres, I canāt think of any that can compete with the very most difficult things in classical (correct me here if there is any).
Soā¦if being a virtuoso pianist and performer of the absolute highest TECHNICAL order is what one desires - then classical may be the best option, because there one will find works that will most allow one to express oneās super-virtuoso technique.
But, even then, there may be a way around. If one is a composer or arranger, one could create modern works of virtuosity in any genre.
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So, the question is: what do you want to be?
If you want to just be a pianist, you donāt need to study classical music to do that. You need to study theory, piano technique, and piano performance, and you can do that in any genre. And, there are many schools, such as Berklee School of Music, that focus on isolating those from Classical and embracing them as fundamentals for modern music. And, in fact, for certain genres of music, you may not even want to listen to classical, as certain genres have methods of playing that would be considered unconventional in classical music.
Moreover, you can even become an advanced pianistā¦and have never studied classical.
Only if you desire to be a pianist at the peak of virtuosity might you find yourself in a circumstance where classical is your best bet - simply, because the repertoire will allow you to realize that greatest technique and play at that absolute highest TECHNICAL level, in a way no other genre does.
Unless, youāre a composer/arranger, in which you can pioneer new, modern works, that are of equal virtuosity as that of the past.
But thereās, in my opinion, nothing stopping anyone from being an advanced pianist, and yet never having touched classical music. One merely has to find the right teachers.
ShiroKuro I suspect there are a lot, go to any music school with a strong jazz program.
My suspicion is that most of the strong students at such a program would have had their technical development during childhood before entering college, and are taught more in the way of theory and ear training in college.
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Taushi I canāt think of any that can compete with the very most difficult things in classical (correct me here if there is any).
That's the thing. The most 'difficult' and most 'complex' thing does not equate to 'best'. There is no 'best'. There is equally great, equally good, and equally special etc though.
Just spend enough time and effort in learning, practising, developing etc - no matter how long it takes - and one will become competent in one way or another. And once that relatively competent stage is reached - it is generally nice and good example-setting to remain 'grounded' about it.
At no point in my post did I infer, suggest, intimate, say, or state that āmost difficult/most complex equals bestā.
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You wrote 'compete'. And that is enough to see where we are both coming from. It's a 'competition' for you. So basically ... you actually did infer.
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Just to lighten things up ... and I have greatest respect for Art Tatum. A natural and prodigy.
If Art were a potato, then what would he be called? Hint ..... Art Po ...
But getting back to serious ... Art Tatum is a genius. Remarkable person.
ranjit I would not consider this more difficult than the Gaspard de la Nuit suite, or Mazeppa/Feux Follets from the 1838 Transcendental Etudes, or the Rachmaninoff Second Sonata/Third Concerto, or some of Chopinās more challenging etudes, etc.
Is this stunningly difficult to play at speed, yes? But, I would not consider it as difficult as the absolute most difficult works in classical music, especially considering how short it is.
Also, keep in mind that a lot of this was improvisation - jazz pianists remembers chords, scales, modes, voicings, and often followed those in their improvisations. Still wildly virtuosic, and stupendously impressive - and played with dexterity most pianists could only dream of - but itās still improvisation, and so thereās a level of freedom there - mistakes are not mistakes - they become part of the song if the musician is great enough - and Tatum was one in a century.
Thatās a bit different from learning a piece note for note and having to replay it back as written with no room for error, especially when the piece is 10 or 20 minutes long, or more.
So, if oneās goal is to be some blinding virtuoso, then classical would probably still be the field to go into, only because it would offer MORE opportunities for blinding virtuosity.
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That said, this is excellent proof that, as I said in my post, one can be a virtuoso pianist and still NEVER touch the classical repertoire, so long as one focuses on technique, theory, and general performance.
Case in point:
One could study pure theory and technique, and then apply it to works by Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, and Thelonious Monk, be a virtuoso/advanced pianist, and yet have never studied classical.
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Taushi but itās still improvisation
It's not 'just' improvisation ..... or even 'still improvisation'. Need to firmly keep that in mind. It's special. And is indeed very remarkable
Taushi especially considering how short it is.
Music doesn't need to be relatively long to be 'good'. Relatively short can be excellent too.