ShiroKuro

ShiroKuro Coming into this thread late and have lots to say… 😅
But first, has anyone else used the Super Sightreading Secrets book? I have it, and years ago worked through most of it… but now I can’t remember whether I liked it or found it useful or not. 😁

I've had that book around for many years and have used it off and on. At some point, I have too much trouble keeping my place in the visual perception drills and set it aside. I like the keyboard orientation drills, but didn't advance very far because they're supposed to be practiced as sets with the visual perception drills where I kept getting stuck early on. I still have the book and may return to it for just the keyboard orientation drills, since that seems to be my biggest barrier to keeping my eyes on a page of music. Oddly, I can often manage octave or even greater leaps without looking down, but smaller intervals (4ths, etc.) often challenge me.

      ShiroKuro I've read, and had piano teachers agree, that it's best to read from the bottom up, i.e., from the bass clef up to the treble clef.

      I don't think most teachers agree on this and I don't believe there are hard and fast rules like that. It depends on the patterns in the music.

      Honestly, I don't think that I'm reading in any regular direction from the bottom or from the top. What I'm doing is more like trying to quickly find patterns at a glance and using that information subconciously while reading details. For example, if I see that the left hand is playing a broken chord Alberti bass for the next measure I just put my left hand in that position and play the notes automatically while focusing on the treble clef, then I look ahead to see how the pattern changes in the next measure and prepare for that. If the pattern is different I might do something different, for instance I might notice that the hands are moving together or appart in thirds or that the notes are repeated in a regular pattern up a fifth or something like that. You have to become good at seeing the patterns at a glance and acting on them without much thought while saving brain time for decyphering the important details. It's much like not thinking about the spelling of each word while reading text.

      Maybe the "look at the bass first" advice is a way to get students to notice the bass chord changes quickly and focus on reading the melody. That might work in some music but not always.

          BartK Maybe the "look at the bass first" advice is a way to get students to notice the bass chord changes quickly and focus on reading the melody.

          I asked my teacher about this recently actually... but it was well before this thread started, and not in the context of sightreading per se... I think he said the reason has something to do with harmony, but oddly enough I can't remember what he said! 😅
          I have a lesson today, maybe I'll ask again. He's pretty patient! 😃

          I'm pretty sure that I'm most often looking most at the treble clef, but I think it depends on the score of course. I'll try to pay attention to what I'm doing when I practice tonight

              I participated in an online sight reading course run by Lona Kozik during covid lockdowns. Her advice was to read the lowest notes first which I find quite difficult.

                keff I participated in an online sight reading course run by Lona Kozik during covid lockdowns. Her advice was to read the lowest notes first which I find quite difficult.

                She was talking about chords, right? I think it comes down to training and how you are used to doing it. The background of this advice is, in my opinion, that the name of the root-note is the important one, you need to know. And normally the root note is the lowest note.

                BUT: there is no guarantee that the chord isn't inverted, so in my opinion this advice is pretty worthless. If she learned it that way from her teacher, she got used to doing it that way and then this is the easiest for her. And because this is the easiest for her, she is teaching the same to her students.

                Let me propose what I think is best for chord reading (and I will train this way):

                • treble clef / RH: read from bottom to top
                • bass clef / LH: read from top to bottom

                Or to be more precise, read the "inner" note and memorize the shape of the chord (also the inverted ones). The reason for this is simple. If you need to look down to your hands, place your eye on the inner finger (e.g. thumb) and the rest of the chord is then just muscle memory. And if you orientate in the center of the keyboard for both hands, your eye has to move a smaller distance, and you can check both hand with a single glimpse.
                (I find it very slow to place my left hand with the pinky as reference finger. Especially if the hand does a jump and the destination key is covered by my hand.)

                Some time ago, Sam posted a link to a video where the eyes or pianists are looking at. And I found in case of looking to the keyboard, the eye is often oriented to the thumb (or where the thumb needs to go).

                  My tip, probably already covered in thread WAY to long to read all the way through.

                  Use a printed score. First work out all the chords if not indicated, an write them on the score including what inversion it is. Next identify and notes on ledger lines that are beyond what you instinctively know. Write the note beside it. Then figure out you fingering and write that one score.

                  Now just practice it, adjusting figuring if necessary.

                  Sydney Australia
                  Retired part-time piano technician

                    @WieWaldi this is super interesting, thanks for posting it.

                    The idea of eye orienting to the thumbs makes a lot of sense to me, because if you know where your thumbs are, you can get the rest of your fingers where they need to be.

                    As for reading direction, reading the treble clef bottom to top, and the bass clef top to bottom might sound like it doesn’t make sense (bc you would start in the middle and then it’s like your eyes have to go in different directions). But actually, since we can take in a lot of visual information, if you’re looking at the middle, you are likely able to see the notes above and below as well… hmm, I’ll try to see if I’m doing this…

                    • MRC replied to this.

                      ShiroKuro

                      I also asked my last teacher about it. He said that you have to start with the treble, and then bass, and you have to read a few bars ahead of your playing. I was there to improve my sight reading, so he was focused on that. One of the exercises I had to do during a lesson was to play a new piece from sheet music, and as soon as it went well I had to transpose it to a different key at the spot. So I had to play the piece from sheet music, but in different keys. Maybe because you don't start to memorize it as fast this way, I don't know what it was for to be honest. Does someone else know what it is for?

                          ShiroKuro The idea of eye orienting to the thumbs makes a lot of sense to me, because if you know where your thumbs are, you can get the rest of your fingers where they need to be.

                          It may seem like a good idea, but it isn't. It isn't, because piano music isn't generally built from the thumbs outwards. The most important things are usually found at the top and the bottom. Here are the essential elements, in order of importance:

                          1. The melody

                          In most of the music we play, the melody is the most important thing. You will recognise a piece if you hear just the melody. There are times when I've saved my skin in opera rehearsals when the going gets really tough by playing only the melody. It's more important to get the tune (notes and rhythms) right than all the rest. Usually the melody is at the top, but you need to be able to recognise the rarer cases where the melody is in the middle, or at the bottom.

                          2. The bass line

                          In classical or romantic music, if you get melody and bass line right, you can already give a good impression of the piece. Most of the time the melody together with the bass line is enough to indicate the harmonies.

                          3. Other stuff

                          • harmonies
                          • accompaniment rhythms
                          • dynamics
                          • inner voices
                          • ornaments
                          • rubato
                          • other details...

                          These elements vary in importance. Probably harmony is the next one to concentrate on, but sometimes a subito ff or pp will trump the harmony. An advanced sight-reader quickly works out what is most important, but if you're a beginner sight-reader it's enough to concentrate on getting top and bottom right.

                          One more thing: the idea that you must read ahead. If you think you should always be looking at a place further on in the piece than what you are playing, it won't work. What you do need to do is to learn to grasp things phrase-wise, not note by note. I'll post in more detail about how to achieve this when I have the time.

                              Josephine One of the exercises I had to do during a lesson was to play a new piece from sheet music, and as soon as it went well I had to transpose it to a different key at the spot. So I had to play the piece from sheet music, but in different keys. Maybe because you don't start to memorize it as fast this way, I don't know what it was for to be honest. Does someone else know what it is for?

                              If you can transpose a piece into another key, it means you grasp how it works harmonically. You're not just associating notes on the pages with keys on the piano, you're developing an understanding of tonal relations in the piece.

                                Josephine He said that you have to start with the treble, and then bass, and you have to read a few bars ahead of your playing.

                                Which is the opposite of what I was told (I.e.m start from the bass clef. The part about reading ahead is the same advice)

                                Anyway, sometimes I wonder if teachers are just telling us what they do, when other approaches work just as well. 🤔

                                    MRC The idea of eye orienting to the thumbs makes a lot of sense to me, because if you know where your thumbs are, you can get the rest of your fingers where they need to be.

                                    It may seem like a good idea, but it isn't. It isn't, because piano music isn't generally built from the thumbs outwards. The most important things are usually found at the top and the bottom.

                                    Yes of course. But here, I was just talking about sort of keyboard geography and knowing where your fingers are without looking down. But yes, as you say, the top and bottom notes are generally the most important parts. In any case, I’m still thinking out loud here, and haven’t been at the keyboard yet after posting this, so I’m not sure what I’m doing when I’m sightreading truly new music in terms of whether I’m orienting to my thumbs or not. For better or for worse, at this point so many of the things I do at the piano are on auto pilot (I’ve been playing for 25 years now, yikes!)

                                    One more thing: the idea that you must read ahead. If you think you should always be looking at a place further on in the piece than what you are playing, it won't work. What you do need to do is to learn to grasp things phrase-wise, not note by note. I'll post in more detail about how to achieve this when I have the time.

                                    I think you may be contradicting yourself here a bit. If you’re playing a totally new piece of music, especially if you don’t know the music in your head (but even then sometimes), you’re not going to be able to grasp the phrase if you’re not reading ahead. Reading ahead helps ensure you’re not playing note-by-note. And of course it’s crucial for choosing the right fingering on the fly.

                                    I think your point (if I may) is that “looking ahead” on its own isn’t sufficient.

                                      Think of this: if you only manage to play the melody in the treble, the piece will probably be recognisable. It won't be recognisable if you only manage the bass.

                                        ShiroKuro
                                        I have nothing against people reading from the top down or the bottom up whichever way works for them.

                                        I prefer doing it from the bottom up since we recognize intervals & chords from the bottom note.

                                        • TC3 likes this.

                                          Re reading ahead, there's a lot to be said, which is why I need more time in order to go into detail. The basic point I'm making is that you're not constantly reading ahead of where you are playing. You scan a phrase very quickly to grasp it in its entirety, but most of the time while playing it you are looking at the notes you're playing. It's like reading a language.

                                            MRC
                                            Well sure, but at this point in my playing, I’m not going for “recognizable.” If that was the goal, I could just play the treble clef one-handed.

                                            In any case, I feel like our discussion here is shaping up so that it sounds like I’m arguing for one thing, and you’re arguing for another, when I’m not committed to either approach (yet). As I said above, I’m just thinking out loud and until I sit down at my piano (which won’t be for another 12 hours probably) I’m just speculating here.

                                              MRC most of the time while playing it you are looking at the notes you're playing. It's like reading a language.

                                              People don’t read word-by-word, they read by phrase (which is exactly what you said about playing).

                                              The other thing that we’re not really articulating is that, regardless of wherever we are activity “looking,” we see a lot more than just those notes. And that I think is key, because we’re taking in a lot of information. And then longer you’ve been playing (and the more comfortable you are with written musical notation) the more automated your process of interpreting that information becomes.

                                              So maybe the challenge of sightreading (one of the challenges anyway) is figuring out which parts aren’t yet sufficiently automated, and making sure you’re making up for that in how you read.

                                              So back to “start at bass clef vs treble clef,” perhaps what matters is for the person to start at their weakest point. And this might even be piece-specific. Or maybe even changing within one piece.

                                              What I mean is, if the LH part is pretty straightforward, I will need less time to translate what I see into what I play for the LH. In that case, focusing on the treble clef and sort of glancing through the bass clef as I play, may be sufficient. But with a more challenging or complex LH part, I may need to be actively reading that more, then reading from the bass clef up might be better. Especially if the melody is clear and it’s easier for me to predict where the melody is going.

                                              In any case, I have to go to work now, see y’all later today 😅

                                                ShiroKuro Which is the opposite of what I was told (I.e.m start from the bass clef. The part about reading ahead is the same advice)

                                                Anyway, sometimes I wonder if teachers are just telling us what they do, when other approaches work just as well. 🤔

                                                I think so. Maybe there is no official rule how to sight read.

                                                  JohnCW My tip, probably already covered in thread WAY to long to read all the way through.

                                                  Use a printed score. First work out all the chords if not indicated, an write them on the score including what inversion it is. Next identify and notes on ledger lines that are beyond what you instinctively know. Write the note beside it. Then figure out you fingering and write that one score.

                                                  Now just practice it, adjusting figuring if necessary.

                                                  I like this advice. I hadn't thought to do chord analysis for sight reading, but a teacher from a couple of college classes I've taken, always had the class take this as a first step when starting to work on a new piece.

                                                  The ledger line notes is another good tip that I don't haven't been remembering to follow. One of the sight reading book series I've used advocates identifying the highest and lowest note in the piece.

                                                    I'm playing mainly Intermediate level pieces. I don't usually read everything the first time. Every time I re-read the same section I pick up a bit more including correct notes, dynamics, phrasing.

                                                    Besides reading, we need need to get comfortable with the fingerings and even jumps. A beginner piece with no awkward fingerings & jumps we just read the notes. Otherwise need to keep repeating sections many times to get the muscle memory even after reading over & over.