Trying out a new tuner

ShiroKuro

So some of you might remember my post over at PW a while back about the tuner who wanted to tune my piano in an unequal temperament. He told me he prefers doing a well-tempered tuning and encouraged me to try it. (That is the gentleman who installed my dampp chaser). He also told me that he usually doesn't tell clients that he's doing a well-tempered tuning, he just tunes that way and they're all happy. (ummm...) But he said I seemed more interested in these matters, so he would tell me (smart move).

Well after much debating, I asked him to do an equal temperament tuning, a standard tuning. He said he would (this was in a phone conversation). So the tuning day came, he tuned my piano (this was about a month after the DC installation). And didn't ask me to play before he left.

Well, as it happens, I did not like that tuning. I couldn't decide if it was because it wasn't a standard tuning and was actually a well-tempered tuning, or if I just didn't like his tuning. At the time, I wasn't really able to describe it well, but it sounded too "shimmery" to me. I debated about calling him, but he lives pretty far away and then I got busy with work and a few weeks past and I just I would put up with it.

Eventually the shimmer seemed to mellow out, and since I knew we would be moving (and now we're moving next week!) I've been waiting till me move to get it tuned again. At this point, it hasn't quite been 6 months since that tuning.

So, I have decided to try someone else for my next tuning. He recommended I get the piano in its new spot, and as long as it's not so out of tune I can't stand it, wait for 2-4 weeks. (He also said he would come out and help me with the DC if need help getting it reinstalled).

Anyway, we talked about the tuning issue and so on. He also said he wants me to play the piano after he tunes (and before he leaves) so I can check the tuning (what a concept!) and he will tweak it if needed. Yay.

So, that's my tuning story. I'll make another post in a month with an update!

twocats

ShiroKuro is it shimmery, or is it crunchy? The first guy I called after my tech had to stop working put a really horrible ET tuning on my piano, I think with as little stretch as possible. It was so awful I paid another guy to come a week later! Plus it wasn't even a solid tuning and notes started slipping within a day. You may remember this discussion.

I can only describe the intervals as "crunchy". They were very unpleasant.

JohnCW

ShiroKuro He told me he prefers doing a well-tempered tuning and encouraged me to try it

The thing is there are literally hundreds of different non equal temperaments. The 'bible' on them is a book about 3 inches thick, as you can imaging for a subject that dates back to the 1300's. So just what non equal temperament is he actually using?? One that gives strong 'color' to different key signatures, and likely why a composer 200 years ago deliberately chose a particular key signature, or a change so small that most people can't barely distinguish it to true equal temperament?

ShiroKuro

I do remember your problems! No, I wouldn't describe it as crunchy... the only word I could get was shimmery. And it's mellowed now so it doesn't bug me so much. But I'm anxious to get it tuned.

I so wish I could have my old guy come up, but I think it's like a 13 hour drive from where we used to live. 😅

pseudonym58

Uh oh! Shimmery is not a word I would associate with an in-tune piano. Yes, I am aware that you look for a different sound in a non-ET tuning, but it does seem to me that in certain keys you will have found the penalty to be unacceptable, unless you are playing music only in a small subset of keys.
BTW, I use the word aquatic to describe my piano when it seriously needs a tuning; the combined beats make it sound as if I'm hearing it through a tank of water in motion. 😆

ShiroKuro

JohnCW The thing is there are literally hundreds of different non equal temperaments

Yes, as I learned after he first mentioned it to me!

I’m happy to stick with an equal tempered tuning. For one you, I play in way too many keys…

keff

I have had two long term tuners over the thirty years I have owned my upright. I once asked the first one about listening for beats and was a little surprised when he denied that he tuned in that way. Is there another way of achieving equal temperament ? When I eventually changed tuner (the change was made for a different reason) the piano just started to sing.

ShiroKuro

Wow! And you would have never known!

We’ll see how the new person does. He tunes for the music school here so I’m hoping he’s really good!

pseudonym58

I was given the following simplified explanation by a piano technician (I hope I am not misremembering; apologies if there's something a little off in this description):
The compromise that is equal temperament tuning involves acceptance of a certain frequency of perceived beats between most intervals. This is affected by a number of factors, including where in the piano's range the interval is located, the gradual increase in inharmonicity (falseness) of the strings' overtone series as you approach the extremes of the piano range, as well as the fact that you have multiple strings sounding on a single pitch which can influence the way the sound waves interact with each other. The technician described that with experience, one starts to sense what is appropriate, beat wise for specific intervals within specific ranges of a piano.
I've never seen any piano tuner counting beats using a stopwatch, etc. as if they were taking a blood pressure measurement! I think it gradually becomes a lot more intuitive.

keff

This video may be of interest.

ShiroKuro

@keff thanks, I'll take a look later!

Bellyman

Some people seem to love equal temperament. Some seem to love other non-equal temperaments. I don't consider either wrong, just different.

As someone who used to tune, I would never, ever, have tuned anything other than equal temperament unless specifically asked to do so. I'd have been reluctant to do so even if it were requested and as it turns out, I never got a request for it, ever.

There are those who claim their particular flavor of temperament is "better". And it may be to them. To each their own.

David-G

SK, there is a very interesting thread on PW which was recently revived, entitled "Tuning and Temperament". I think you might find it interesting and perhaps helpful. In particular, you might be interested in Ed Foote's comments on how his clients like UT tunings. You may or may not agree, but these observations seem relevant to your situation. This is the link:

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3273281/1.html

ShiroKuro

David-G Thanks! I'll have to jump to the end, it spans 3 years and 25 pages! 😅

I wrote about my tuning concerns on PW back in February, and after lots of comments there, and some reading around online, I decided that I would love to try an UT sometime, but not commit to it on my piano. Esp. because, if I had my piano tuned to an UT, I might end up being stuck with it for weeks or months.

The gentleman who did my tuning (who advocated for the UT) lives quite far away and charges more than some others. Which, if he gave me a tuning I absolutely loved, would be great. But I decided that trying a UT on my piano was too risky.

I said then, and I still think, that I really wish I could play a piano tuned to some unequal tuning. Maybe some day I'll have the chance...

Bellyman

Many keyboards have settings where you can try alternate tunings. If you have one or have access to one, you might see if you can try a few of those out. It's not a setting most people ever play with but on most quality keyboards, it's there.

Unequal temperaments, historical temperaments, whatever name someone gives them, come in a lot of different flavors. Some are actually fairly close to equal temperament while others are not. Playing in lots of different key signatures will get you a feel for what different ones are like. A few of the more unequal ones may sound really smooth in one or two keys but might really squawk at you in ways you might not like in other keys.

Good luck!

ShiroKuro

Bellyman A few of the more unequal ones may sound really smooth in one or two keys but might really squawk at you in ways you might not like in other keys

Which is basically why I don’t intend to have my personal piano tuned to an UT.

It’s not like a guitar where the player can easily change the tuning between songs!
😁

clavierhaus

Most people prefer to ignore the fact that all UT are simply failed attempts at achieving a true equal temperament. Physics is hard and bending physics fundamentals (pun intended) into a system that defies a simple approach results in various temperaments, some of which are close to ET, some are not.

When Bach wrote his Well Tempered Clavier he made a monumental statement, saying that each key signature can and should be played on the same instrument. Not to say that WTC was ever intended to be performed on one night, the intention is clear that any selection of P&Fs are to play on the same instrument with the same tuning.

Some concert technicians have fine tuned their approach to laying a temperament and adopting a progressive stretch individual to the inharmonicity of the piano in question. And I know a few technicians who will tell you that a temperament provided by TuneLab - with a knowledgeable initial calibration of a piano's characteristics - will sound beautiful e.g. in slowly decreasing beats of major thirds in a downward m achromatic scale.

The beauty in a tuning isn't in the temperament, it's in the unisons anyway. And you can only tune beautiful unisons when you can hear high harmonic partials i.e. playing F3 and actually listening to tuning A5/A6 beatless.

This is where any software so far cannot compete with a well trained tuner's ear. In term of temperament: Not so much.

ShiroKuro

BTW the new tuner is scheduled to come out on Wednesday (a week from today).

I cannot wait!!!

Sgisela

ShiroKuro I’m on tenterhooks waiting to hear about the tuning…

keff

My piano is sounding better than ever since last Friday 21st June when my tuner visited for its six monthly service.