• Tuner Technicians

  • Can you replicate the touch of one piano to a completely different one?

I have a 1999 Bösendorfer 225 that I've had since 2015, and I generally liked the touch but the piano had various issues and I always felt like I was fighting it to play pianissimo. A couple of years ago we installed a new action and hammers from the Bösendorfer factory and my former tech (who is no longer working due to health reasons) rebalanced the keys using Heather Fandrich's software. He said he used to do Stanwood but he thinks this is better (he didn't explain why).

Right now everything is very consistent and even as one might expect, but I preferred the old touch. He didn't take measurements when I had the original hammers so we don't have those as a reference.

I have played two Baldwin SF10 pianos where I absolutely loved the touch so I'm wondering if it's possible to get a similar touch on my piano if my current tech was able to get some upweight and downweight measurements. Or is there a lot more to it and it can't be done? I have experienced how voicing affects my perception of touch and how it can all be so subjective. But I'm wondering if I can have it all: the sound of my piano but the touch of the SF10.

Thanks in advance for any responses!

    twocats A couple of years ago we installed a new action and hammers from the Bösendorfer factory and my former tech (who is no longer working due to health reasons) rebalanced the keys using Heather Fandrich's software. He said he used to do Stanwood but he thinks this is better (he didn't explain why).
    Or is there a lot more to it and it can't be done?

    The Stanwood system is much more than balancing key Down and Up weight. The starting point is ensuring hammers are an appropriate and consistent increasing weight right across the 88 hammers. I can't really say if the supplied factory hammers/shanks had been 'fine tuned', by the factory or by your tech. They may be on the heavy side, intended to give the volume for a concert hall, whereas you may want them lighter for a home situation. It's hard to know, not knowing what your tech did or how they came from the factory.

    If you have an excessively heavy hammer, and you plug a big lead in the key stick to offset that weight, expect it to play like a truck. The reason is the physics of 'inertia'. It takes a lot more effort to shift a heavy weight than a light one, even thought the weight may be balanced. Think of two equal weight sumo wrestlers on a see-saw compared to two small light children. Both cases are balanced, but the children will move up and down faster and with less effort.

    So if I was in your situation, the starting point is getting or confirming what is called 'strike weight' (the weight of a simulated installed hammer) appropriate and working forward from there.

    Sydney Australia
    Retired part-time piano technician

        JohnCW thank you for your response. My tech did fine tune the hammers and shanks to make sure the weights were consistent; I remember he was a little annoyed that they weren't "pre-prepped" by the factory.

        The new hammers are significantly heavier than the old ones. The piano does not play like a truck because the touch is even and consistent, but maybe it plays like a truck relative to how it could perform. Even pressing down on the keys I feel the weight of the hammers pressing back, but I think I got used to it. Before he had to stop being my tech we were discussing taking some weight off the hammers; of course this is much more work now that they have already been installed. But now that you reminded me of it, I think it might be what's needed.

        My current tech says he specializes in key rebalancing (Stanwood). We discussed the weight of the hammers and I think he's reluctant to take some weight off since they're installed already, but said he wanted to take measurements and go from there.

        I suppose this work is 2-3 years off and we'll do it at the next regulation. I was really hoping not to have to spend a lot more but if that will get me the touch I was looking for, then it would be worth it.

            twocats We discussed the weight of the hammers and I think he's reluctant to take some weight off since they're installed already, but said he wanted to take measurements and go from there.

            The critical 'strike weight' is measured with the hammer installed on the shank (removed from the action) as the shank itself adds weight to what the player feels, and these can vary in weight due to timber grain density etc. So say pulling all the A's off and accurately measuring them to get a feel for the current strike weigh curve would be a good starting point and not all that time consuming.
            Changing it all is, but with a bit of analysis at least you'll know where you stand. Stanwood has published a series of ideal strike weight curves for various situations. Obviously the curve for a small home grand will be different to that of a 9 foot concert venue.

            Sydney Australia
            Retired part-time piano technician

                JohnCW I'll talk to my tech before he comes in July and maybe he can take the measurements during his visit. Even if we wait a while to do the work, I'll feel better if we have a plan (and estimated budget). I'll keep you posted!

                  8 days later

                  twocats A couple of years ago we installed a new action and hammers from the Bösendorfer factory and my former tech (who is no longer working due to health reasons) rebalanced the keys using Heather Fandrich's software. He said he used to do Stanwood but he thinks this is better (he didn't explain why).

                  That, sorry, strikes me as truly bizarre. The 225 is without doubt a truly high end piano and before you have the action replaced by someone who cannot even in detail explain, why he chooses to manipulate the action in an undocumented way, you should have had a concert technician look at the piano and spend one full day of regulation of the action to concert standards. That should have been the foundation of an assessment of the original action and your feeling that it needs to be changed.

                  Most people underestimate the true value in having your grand piano regulated to perfection and shy away from the costs of having it done by an expert. Considering the fact that every key in an action has 30+ adjustable parameters, it becomes obvious why most technicians don't even bother to look into this matter beyond their usual 4-5 parameters and can declare the job done after an hour or so.

                  Again, this is where I would start at the moment: Having the action regulated by a true expert and then taking an assessment of what may or may not be right or wrong with it at this point and take it from there.

                  Where are you located?

                      clavierhaus why he chooses to manipulate the action in an undocumented way, you should have had a concert technician look at the piano and spend one full day of regulation of the action to concert standards.

                      My tech was a concert technician who had been trained at the Bösendorfer factory and in my opinion the best tech in town. He had been regulating and voicing my piano for 8 years before the hammers were reaching the end of their life, and I decided that since replacing them would require a major regulation that we might as well replace the action at the same time. One of the reasons is also that the tech of the original owner (who initially told me he did not do anything to the piano) was told that Protek is great, so he took Protek grease (the kind meant for pedals, not the powder) and put it everywhere! It was even on the metal pins that the keysticks go on.

                      So basically there were a ton of issues that could not be fully resolved without getting a new action, and we got the new action and hammers from the factory after sending them samples of the originals to try to match them. The new hammers are much heavier compared to the old ones and I wish my tech had lightened them, though the tech I hired before that did take some felt off the hammers during voicing so they were no longer the same weights they were when new anyway. The old up and down weights were all over the place and he thought he would start fresh. I had also requested that he increase the key dip. So anyway, as you can see it was a complicated situation.

                      I'm sure he would explain to me why he thinks the Fandrich system is better than Stanwood if I asked but I didn't at the time. He is one of the most thoughtful and careful people I know, and I know he thought he was doing the right thing. Now he cannot work any more due to a health issue so I have a new tech. He doesn't have concert experience but from what I know of the techs around here, I feel that he is my best option. He also says he specializes in key rebalancing so I am planning to have him take some measurements next time he's here. I'm getting more and more convinced that the hammers are just too heavy. I'm in Portland, Oregon.

                          It's your piano and your decision, even though I am not sure why you are the one to decide that hammers a) have reached their EOL, b) new hammers need major regulation and c) why b) is a bad thing.

                          In my experience, real regulation is something you don't encounter on a brand new piano, no matter the price tag - and it's totally worth the effort to get it done by a master. We're talking about a full day of regulation here, not the quick one hour variant of getting it somewhat right.

                          Protek in itself isn't evil and even if applied too abundantly in whatever part of the action: It doesn't do irreversible harm to any part of it. Worst case scenario is to replace all bushings of keys and worstworst case scenario to replace all bushings in the wippens.

                          Other than that, Protek doesn't really do any long term damage. We're talking CLP, right?

                          In any case, replacing the full action of a piano is more than just pulling out the old one and pushing in the new one. I can guarantee you that keybed and keyframe will never be a perfect match in this scenario. Which also means that you can add another couple of thousands of USD for work done in a workshop to get the right fit.

                          From my experience there are very, very few instances where a full action replacement is warranted (let's exclude "rebuilds" of really old instruments). Rebuilding an action according to factory standards isn't rocket science; it's replacement of a few crucial parts where true restoration doesn't make sense - and a lot of regulation.

                          My own 1973 Bösendorfer 225:

                          [

                          Has been in Bösendorfer maintenance at the Austrian state broadcast station for the past decades. Maintenance work was done, but no major work was necessary. My technician estimates that it's at about 40% of its actual potential and we'll slowly work our way to getting it into ship shape. But even right now I've heard worse ones.

                          I really question your approach, but I don't judge it.

                          A 1999 Bösendorfer 225 doesn't need a new action (unless it is heavily damaged by falling off a truck twice) and above all it does not need a re-calculation of its action geometry. Your whole story sounds like 'Grand Obsession' all over with technicians who think they know better than those who actually designed and built the piano.

                          Sorry, but I am really passionate about these things, so please don't get this down the wrong throat.

                            clavierhaus all I know is that the treble kept getting really bright and there were several very harsh notes that would not get better with voicing for more than a few days. He said there wasn't much felt for him to work with and he was going to "kill the hammers" if we kept doing it. He did concert regulation on my piano-- 3 rounds of regulation.

                            Whatever the original tech put was a grease that was meant to go on pedals. My tech said it was everywhere in the action.

                            I spent an obscene amount of money on the work. At this point, there isn't much I can do about decisions made years ago. I would love to have access to a top technician but I can only find the best available here.

                                twocats I would love to have access to a top technician but I can only find the best available here.

                                I think that's your problem. Or, basically, it's a US problem.

                                    Pallas I'm having a hard time understanding the point of this comment. If it's just to point out that non-US techs are better, how does that help those of us who live in the US? So far, this place has been full of helpful suggestions and supportive comments and I would prefer it to stay that way.

                                    Forget what I wrote before; I just can't afford flying in those superb US technicians for regulating and voicing my pianos. I'll thus have to stick to my local European and Japanese trained technicians; sorry for that.

                                      I think excellent points have been made on all sides and no one is considering flying technicians either way across the ocean. I also have no doubt believing that Europe is highly privileged in terms of local expertise.

                                      If I'm going to summarize, I think that twocats has all the ingredients needed but needs some local expertise in the US to help realize the full potential of her Bösendorfer. Personally, all I know is that Classic Pianos sells Bösendorfer in that area and Dan Skelley (who is familiar with Fandrich) of Skelley Pianos is a 5 hour drive away... not that I'm saying either of those would pan out, but that's all I know. 🙂

                                      I think we all believe it's possible to get this action in top shape, though it's likely going to be costly and time consuming. In all practicality, a local tech would have to advise further.

                                      --
                                      Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
                                      TIME

                                        navindra I think we all believe it's possible to get this action in top shape, though it's likely going to be costly and time consuming. In all practicality, a local tech would have to advise further.

                                        By now we are talking about two completely different actions, because the original one has already been replaced with a new one, unless I have completely misunderstood the original poster.

                                          Friends,
                                          I made a sarcastic post earlier in this thread and I just removed it now.
                                          There is enough hostility in the world right now. I just want this place here to be a friendly place where I can relax after a long day at work. So to the others who posted inappropriate/insulting words, can you do as I did and remove them? This is a friendly piano forum, not a battlefield. If you absolutely have to insult people, please go to one of those flame war forums. Or stay in PW. Thank you.

                                          @clavierhaus whatever has been done to my piano is done, the money is spent, so there's no point in criticizing or commenting on past decisions except to make me feel bad. And it did make me feel bad.

                                          For what it's worth, my old tech was the one asked by Don Mannino to handle Shigeru Kawai in this area for many years. He's a good technician and the only one here who has seen the inside of my piano and what the original tech did.

                                          My new tech specializes in Stanwood and feels that key rebalancing is his specialty. I am going to ask him to take some measurements next time he's here to see if the hammers are indeed too heavy. @Josephine thank you for your offer, but I'm good.

                                          Thank you folks for the posts encouraging everyone to keep this place positive.

                                            twocats Awesome! I take this whole piano thing as a journey. I find my own way, and I have fun doing it, even if I take detours along the way (like with PianoTell 🤣). Maybe I'll change my tune when I break a string or something. 😅

                                            I feel like that's exactly what you're doing and I hope you're very much enjoying the ride... even the detours. I've definitely been enjoying your journal and I look forward to hearing the outcome of your new tech's work! Your piano is just beautiful, btw.

                                            --
                                            Beach L168, Wish, baCh, WOW Petrof, Fake Steinway, VS
                                            TIME

                                                navindra thanks! Actually the ride has not been fun but hopefully it will end at some point and I'll have a piano that both sounds great and feels great 🙂