Is There A Standard Order of Operations for Learning A New Challenge Piece?

Pallas · 2024-05-31T14:11:54+00:00

My question is specifically in the context of learning a brand new piece that has some aspect of that is completely new to the learner. I've heard lots of...

Pallas

hebele I'm thrilled with how many people are sharing their process. It's a pleasure to see it, and I'm glad it's helping you too.

PianogrlNW

For beginners and early intermediate players I would say:

Look at the score and make some observations, key and time signature, suggested tempo, find the melody. Sight read slowly as best you can. Think about the character of the piece. What parts will be more difficult than others. Why?
Come up with efficient fingerings. Your score may already have fingerings, but they may not work for your hands.
Divide your piece into sections. This will make it more manageable and less overwhelming as you start practicing. IOW you don’t need to work on the entire piece at one time.
Play through slowly so as not to make mistakes, HT, if you are able. Count out loud. Make sure the rhythm is correct.
As you become more secure with the notes, it will become easier to give more attention to phrasing, dynamics, and pedaling.

Other thoughts - Make sure you play at a tempo where you can keep the music moving forward, meaning no unintended hesitations as you search for where the next notes go and no unwanted accents. Play LH alone and sing the melody. Try to figure out where the phrases are. Often they will be either 4 or 8 bars long. Let the piece breathe at the end of a phrase. Use a metronome to check the evenness of your playing, but don’t become too reliant on it. Don’t forget to enjoy the wonderful sounds you’re making!

JohnCW

PianogrlNW Use a metronome to check the evenness of your playing

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I find a metronome clacking away annoying and totally distracting. Hate the things with a passion.

Pallas

Thank you all for sharing your learning processes. I'll be traveling for a week, so if I miss replying to a comment, I will surely do so when I circle back around to give thanks, read additional comments if any appear, and probably ask a few questions. I'm so grateful for the generosity in your responses. I'm happy to be here.

JohnCW

Josephine I do try to learn everything at once, but I start with just one phrase. And when I can play it, notes and rhythm and dynamics (but I try to make the dynamics more beautiful when I learned the piece completely) I go to the next phrase. But I don't know if this is normal or good.

It's good enough for Daniel Barenboim to learn piece that way. Just finished reading his autobiography. Doesn't believe in learning hand separate etc. Breaks the piece down into distinct phrases and works on mastering each phrase both hands. THEN puts it all together. So rest assured you are in VERY good company in your approach.

Josephine

JohnCW

I didn't know that, maybe I should read his book.

Pallas

JohnCW It's good enough for Daniel Barenboim to learn piece that way.

I aspire to be inspired by Barenboim! A great pianist to emulate, once one has the skills to be able to emulate him. Right now, I feel a bit like I'm a toddler, and I should somehow already have a 150-mph tennis serve and be able to follow the ideal practice advice of Serena Williams. But that's not reasonable for me to expect of myself, right? First, I have to learn how to hold the racket and the ball at the same time. The purpose of my post was exactly this: obviously Barenboim has the ideal practice. As a beginner, who isn't yet a concert pianist, and for reasons I've explained elsewhere struggle in lessons, I'm wanting a nice laminated sheet of bullet points that will serve as a kind of breadcrumb trail toward the ideal practice. So when I hear I'm not capable of following the ideal yet, because beginners usually aren't, I get hard on myself and think this means I'm not "doing it right," and, oh no, I'll never play Clair de Lune! and I feel sad and discouraged. I think that's not true, but I think it's a very human mistake for an adult beginner to make.

Please tell me it's not stupid to hope (as long as I work hard while hoping)! 🥰

I hope that makes sense!

danno858

Pallas it is possible for you to learn such pieces as Clair de Lune but it takes a few years of practice to get to that point. I don’t think there exists a list of bullet points to follow that would be the same for everyone. Everyone has different learning curves. Ideally you would get a teacher who can help you with building your technique. Other than that there’s a wealth of good training courses on the internet. David Zhadanov has a pretty good YouTube channel. The more you practice and try to learn new pieces the better it is for learning. It’s not quick though.

ranjit

Pallas

Pallas So when I hear I'm not capable of following the ideal yet, because beginners usually aren't, I get hard on myself and think this means I'm not "doing it right," and, oh no, I'll never play Clair de Lune! and I feel sad and discouraged. I think that's not true, but I think it's a very human mistake for an adult beginner to make.

As a word of encouragement, I started as an adult (college student), and when I began I wasn't sure if I would ever play, say, the Claire de Lune. I didn't think it was possible to attain coordination of both hands because I had passed a critical childhood phase or something. After a few years, I'm reaching a point where Chopin Ballades and Liszt Transcendental Etudes are within reach. I did put in a lot of effort, obviously. But what I mean to say is that, as a beginner, your perspective of how far you can eventually reach is usually quite off the mark. You have to get an excellent teacher (which isn't most of them btw) and spend at least a serious year of at least an hour a day of practice to even have a decent idea imo.

I would say your teacher should be instructing you with a good deal of specificity on how you should be spending your time.

Animisha

Pallas, you have had so many answers already, and I have not read all of them, but here come my five cents:
Try to figure out which is the most difficult part, and start there. It is totally fine to focus on two really difficult measures before you even have played through a piece. But maybe you need to play through the piece to find out which measures are really difficult - and that is fine as well.

There is one exception though. If the challenge of the piece is for instance a new unfamiliar rhythm, then it is best to learn this new rhythm when playing easier parts, and then focus on the difficult parts.

Sophia

ranjit your teacher should be instructing you

Well, that's just the thing. Not all of us have the luxury of a teacher, for various reasons. That's why we so eagerly lap up every bit of wisdom thrown our way 😃

Pallas

ranjit After a few years, I'm reaching a point where Chopin Ballades and Liszt Transcendental Etudes are within reach.

That's marvelous. Well done! I wish you the very best on your journey. I'm rooting for you.

Stub

ranjit Pallas

Pallas So when I hear I'm not capable of following the ideal yet, because beginners usually aren't, I get hard on myself and think this means I'm not "doing it right," and, oh no, I'll never play Clair de Lune! and I feel sad and discouraged. I think that's not true, but I think it's a very human mistake for an adult beginner to make.

As a word of encouragement, I started as an adult (college student), and when I began I wasn't sure if I would ever play, say, the Claire de Lune. I didn't think it was possible to attain coordination of both hands because I had passed a critical childhood phase or something. After a few years, I'm reaching a point where Chopin Ballades and Liszt Transcendental Etudes are within reach. I did put in a lot of effort, obviously. But what I mean to say is that, as a beginner, your perspective of how far you can eventually reach is usually quite off the mark. You have to get an excellent teacher (which isn't most of them btw) and spend at least a serious year of at least an hour a day of practice to even have a decent idea imo.

I would say your teacher should be instructing you with a good deal of specificity on how you should be spending your time.

Ranjit, it's wonderful that you have made so much progress and so quickly, but not everyone will do the same. We each have our own speed of learning and our own skills and talents to work with. If fact, not getting to the level of the Ballades and TE is fine. Do we all wish we did? Sure. Should we aim high? Certainly. But please enjoy the journey and all the wonderful music there is to play at so many levels.

Pallas

Sophia Well, that's just the thing. Not all of us have the luxury of a teacher, for various reasons. That's why we so eagerly lap up every bit of wisdom thrown our way 😃

Thank you, Sophia, for understanding my main point of the question. I would love to have the mentorship of a wonderful teacher. But I'm not going to sit on my hands waiting. So I'm digging and digging and applying myself diligently to do what I can in the meantime. My whole focus is that situation is not ideal, but I'm going to do my best with what I have. I'd love to have support in this phase of my effort.

ranjit

Pallas Thank you, Sophia, for understanding my main point of the question. I would love to have the mentorship of a wonderful teacher. But I'm not going to sit on my hands waiting. So I'm digging and digging and applying myself diligently to do what I can in the meantime.

I see, I couldn't remember whether you said you had a teacher or not. I don't think having a teacher precludes asking questions on a forum such as this. I've learned a lot that my teachers didn't cover.

Sophia

Exactly. Whereas I absolutely understand and appreciate the value of a good teacher, dismissing each question with "get yourself a teacher!" is counter productive and rather insulting, in my opinion.

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely did not mean to single out ranjit's comment that I quoted above. I actually agree with what he said. I was merely reiterating a gripe that I had with another forum, where people without a teacher were almost invariably put down as incompetent idiotic adults who might as well visit Youtube and learn through those midi blocks that fall down on the keys, for all our efforts are worth. I'm hoping that such a way of addressing (dismissing) questions does not make its way into this forum, ever 🙂

JohnCW

Sophia Exactly. Whereas I absolutely understand and appreciate the value of a good teacher, dismissing each question with "get yourself a teacher!" is counter productive and rather insulting, in my opinion.

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely did not mean to single out ranjit's comment that I quoted above. I actually agree with what he said. I was merely reiterating a gripe that I had with another forum, where people without a teacher were almost invariably put down as incompetent idiotic adults who might as well visit Youtube and learn through those midi blocks that fall down on the keys, for all our efforts are worth. I'm hoping that such a way of addressing (dismissing) questions does not make its way into this forum, ever

Well said. My favorite YouTube player is self taught, and can't even sight read. Her own arrangements of contemporary music, IMO, are vastly better (by better I mean capture the essence of the original piece) than many of the obviously highly formally trained (and no doubt technically skillful) classical orientated pianists attempting the same thing.

Pallas

ranjit Thanks, Ranjit. My piano story is in this thread (https://forum.pianotell.com/d/705-share-your-piano-journey/42) if you're interested in more context (I don't know how to link to just my story there, sorry). I very much appreciate your contributions to this conversation, and I admire your ability to follow the advice that works for you and to confidently discard what doesn't. You seem very capable of holding your ground under very harsh judgement, and I can't help thinking that this is a skill I also must learn. But I'm really hoping that in this forum the advice can come without the personal attacks and judgements, so I can hear it more clearly. To be clear, in my opinion everyone's contributions to this conversation, including yours, have been helpful, positive, and free of personal attack and judgment, and I'm so grateful for that.

Thank you for offering your perspective.

ranjit

JohnCW My favorite YouTube player is self taught, and can't even sight read. Her own arrangements of contemporary music, IMO, are vastly better (by better I mean capture the essence of the original piece)

Who is this player, if I may ask? I've always taken an interest in YouTube cover artists.

Pallas

JohnCW My favorite YouTube player is self taught, and can't even sight read. Her own arrangements of contemporary music, IMO, are vastly better (by better I mean capture the essence of the original piece) than many of the obviously highly formally trained (and no doubt technically skillful) classical orientated pianists attempting the same thing.

Is it Katherine Cordova? I love her.

JohnCW

Pallas Is it Katherine Cordova? I love her.

You win the prize ... yes its Katherine. I routinely compare her arrangements to other highly skilled more classical oriented players doing the same material on their YouTube channel, and its always Katherine's more 'organic' approach I prefer.

ranjit

Pallas You seem very capable of holding your ground under very harsh judgement, and I can't help thinking that this is a skull I also must learn.

On that other forum, it's not easy haha! But I think to myself, it's just a forum, and I've had very qualified people react positively to my playing so it's a bit easier to discard those voices. It's worth it because some of the posters there are very knowledgeable and I only really pay attention to those.

At some point I thought I would completely ignore the personal attacks, but then realized that it would make me look bad when other people would assume I said something I didn't quite say.

Otoh if someone I know personally, like my teacher, reacts very harshly, it can wreck me for a couple weeks.😅

ranjit

Pallas My piano story is in this thread (https://forum.pianotell.com/d/705-share-your-piano-journey/42) if you're interested in more context (I don't know how to link to just my story there, sorry).

Ah I see. I don't come from a musical family, really. My dad may have had some passing exposure to jazz, but certainly no one listened to classical. I just became very interested in the piano around the beginning of my college years. It's a crazy story. But what I've realized, and what I think we should take heart in, is that it doesn't matter. Put in the right kind of work, get the right kind of instruction if possible, and you should make quite good progress. Whether or not you have a family background seems to be more of a psychological limitation.

thepianoplayer416

Each piece is different. Don't like to generalize there is 1 approach to learning all pieces. Some pieces with easy melody & LH parts I can read through a few times and learn the piece.

There are technical Classical pieces I need to play hands separate and then hands together. And longer pieces I wouldn't be running through in 1 go. About 3 years ago I learned a Bach Sinfonia about 6 min. long in 3 pages. Even have to break the piece down into sections. I'd be working on 1 page a week in sections before connecting them together. Never run the piece through from top to bottom until I'm ready. Recently I started working on a Haydn Andante also in 3 pages. I'm just finishing up page 2 and going on page 3 hopefully by the end of next week.

As always start playing slow tempo unless the piece is already very slow.

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