Is There A Standard Order of Operations for Learning A New Challenge Piece?

Pallas

My question is specifically in the context of learning a brand new piece that has some aspect of that is completely new to the learner.

I've heard lots of conflicting advice.

Learn everything all at once! The notes! The dynamics! Both hands at once! Without pedal! With pedal! With perfect gestures, articulation, and so forth.

Learn in layers! Ok, which layer first?

Is there an answer, or, like many other things, is the answer, "It depends?"

ShiroKuro

Pallas Both hands at once! Without pedal! With pedal!

BTW, re the above... So with the easier piece I described above, I started HT (hands together) from the first play through, and with pedal.

With the other, harder piece, I am still going back and forth between HT and HS (hands separate), and pedal and no pedal. Oh, I should say that I don't choose fingering without doing some HT play, but on a more difficult piece, I will use HS practice as needed to get the notes, melody, rhythm, and learn how it's supposed to sound etc.

cheeeeee

Pallas I found this video of Graham Fitch very helpful

Player1

It depends. (Hey, someone had to say it.)

The correct answer is that you do whatever system of learning fits you and your "style."

My approach is to sit down and play through at whatever speed I can while jotting notes down on the sheet where I have problems. Then I go back and start in those areas. How that begins depends (there's that word again) on how difficult or complex the passage is. Very complex passages require learning each hand separately until the fingering is worked out and fluidity starts to happen. Then the other hand for the same sequence, then put them together. Speed isn't important, only fluidity in playing.

Eventually I get to a point where I can play the entire piece without stumbling too much. At that point pedal/tempo/dynamics/etc come into play.

I would assume that someone could start at the beginning of a new piece and pick their way note by note through it with both hands at once and eventually learn it. For some that might be easier but most teaching methods break a new piece down and have the player work on the difficult bits first.

BartK

My approach has evolved over the years as my skills have improved.

In the first few years my reading skills were not up to par and I would do a lot of memorizing one phrase or one bar at a time, hands separate, and basically learn mostly by motor memory. I don't advise this approach as it took me many years to get my reading back up to a reasonable level compared to the difficulty of the pieces I'm playing. Now I when I learn a new piece I can generally play it through on the first sitting without having to painfully go through learning the notes hands separately like before.

In general, it's good to try to work on aspects of musicality from day 1 but I understand this is difficult to do when a piece is stretching your technical skills. That's why it's good to learn pieces that are at a level where you can read them through on the first sitting rather than have to spend weeks just to learn the notes.

A good idea for stretch pieces (those that have real new technical challenges to overcome) is to make some exercises out of the most difficult sections and practice those separately for a few weeks. For really super difficult pieces I did these kinds of exercises for a couple of weeks before even starting to practice the piece itself and it helped a lot.

Pallas

BartK Thank you. I find this immensely helpful. A follow-up question, if I may. If what's tripping you up is accidentals, would you stop practicing a piece and ... practice the appropriate scale alone, until the accidentals don't trip you up any more? Or if it's right-left coordination on a new combination, you wouldn't isolate a measure and repeat it, you would stop practicing the piece and do something else?

I'm very flexible, very willing to try new things, and very willing to change my approach on anything, because I want to learn piano more than I need to feel comfortable (or whatever). It's all fun times to me. Thank you in advance.

ShiroKuro

It depends. 😃

But seriously, it does. It depends on the piece, and the player, and how easy/difficult the piece is for the player and where the player is at at that point in time.

For me, recently I've worked on a few pieces that are decidedly "under" my playing level, and one that is above (or maybe just barely above, hopefully) my playing level.

For one of the easy pieces, it's four pages long. I was able to sightread it through to the end on first try. So I quickly chucked it up into 4 sections, looked for any spots that might trip me up (and found them, they were transition spots), and made a note for myself to practice as follows: 1) practice those spots in isolation; 2) make sure I have each section down; 3) play the whole thing through. And now I'm working on dynamics and musicality with this piece.

For the piece that's just a little too hard, I am taking a totally different approach. It's five pages long and I couldn't really get past page two on the first sightread through. So after that initial go, I stepped back and chunked up the first page (through to line one of page two) and made practice sections for myself. Then the first thing I did was writing in fingerings. Unlike the piece I mentioned above, where I wrote in a few fingerings here and there, in this piece, I have been writing in multiple fingering notes in each measure. And it's taking me a long time. I've been working on this piece for about a week now and I've only fingered up through the top of page two.

In terms of practicing, I'm practicing those chunks in 4- or 8-measure chunks, working on the notes, the rhythm, the tricky timing etc. I'm not at tempo yet and I'm not focusing on dynamics yet because I'm still working on getting the notes in my fingers. And I'm not allowing myself to go past the top of page 2 (although I will this weekend, I think it's starting to come together now).

I should also say, I've actually played this piece before and it was too hard so I got it to a certain point and put it aside. That was 3 years ago I think. It's still hard but I feel like I'm ready to work on it now, but it still feels like I'm learning it for the first time.

So hopefully these two descriptions are somewhat helpful in fleshing out what "it depends" means...

ShiroKuro

Pallas If what's tripping you up is accidentals, would you stop practicing a piece and ... practice the appropriate scale alone, until the accidentals don't trip you up any more? Or if it's right-left coordination on a new combination, you wouldn't isolate a measure and repeat it, you would stop practicing the piece and do something else?

not Bart, but if I may 🙂

What's tripping you up about the accidentals? I assume you mean true accidentals, right? Not sharps or flats in the key signature? (Some people call any sharp or flat an accidental, but I don't).

If I have a measure with a Bb and it comes up twice in the measure, and I am repeatedly playing that second Bb as a B natural, I re-write the flat symbol onto the score. It might also help to write the fingering in. I think this is more important than playing the scale, because a scale is a scale, but what's tripping you up is a particular note in a specific piece, so I'm in the camp that you're better off playing it in that context.

Another thing you can do is zoom waaay in and just play 3 notes, one measure, 1.5 measures etc. to really drill that note. (Rather than playing the whole passage). Then gradually expand to the beginning and end of the part you're playing so you play more and more of the "context" around the note.

Oh and s l o w d o w n. If you're playing a wrong note, slow down enough that you can play it correctly. Then play it a few times at the tempo before you start increasing the speed.

One more tempo trick: at the end of your practice, play through that section once more, much more slowly than your last playing of it. There's something about super slow play that helps cement the notes into your head at the end of the practice session.

I just realized I don't know a lot about your playing background, so apologies in advance if these comments are too obvious!

Pallas

ShiroKuro I can't thank you enough for taking the time to share your process. I consider this solid gold, because it's very specific and I can easily translate it to my own simpler level. I'm so excited to bring this to my easy arrangement of The Entertainer.

iternabe

I am thinking maybe there is another way to ask this question. I like what @BartK said, that it's best to develop the skill to play through a new piece with everything together when possible. But when we encounter a stretch piece that overwhelms, which happens a lot more often to beginners like me, we will have to back off somewhat in order to get things under control. The question for me is which technical aspects to back off first, and in what order.

I think few will disagree that tempo is the first thing to be relaxed. I personally would put rhythm the last thing, or never, to be given up, even for note accuracy. Because when the rhythm is wrong the music just sounds wrong.

But all the other things in between, like hands together, articulation, dynamics, and pedal, I am often not clear on what's the best approach. Like when do you keep doing everything together with the hope that the mistake ridden parts just fall into place with more practice? Or when do you isolate a single aspect out and practice that alone?

Pallas

iternabe I am thinking maybe there is another way to ask this question.

I like the way you asked the question, because I have the same exact concerns. Thanks so much for being so clear.

Pallas

ShiroKuro I just realized I don't know a lot about your playing background, so apologies in advance if these comments are too obvious!

Thank you so much for this courtesy. I watch SCADS of videos and read tons of books, but I'm only in Level 1 of Alfred's All-In-One Level 1, and I'm very comfortable hearing advice in the very objective way you're offering it. Consider me a sponge, and if I've already heard something you have to offer, I'm just diligently adding it to the database in my brain responsible for pattern recognition, with a little CONFIRMED tag. Thank you, and thank you again. I'm so grateful.

ShiroKuro What's tripping you up about the accidentals? I assume you mean true accidentals, right? Not sharps or flats in the key signature? (Some people call any sharp or flat an accidental, but I don't).

Ah! Interesting! I didn't know that! I used sharps and flats as a general example, but what I really mean is: does figuring out fingering and getting that into my hands come before dynamics? Or is that not the most effective question for "what do I focus on first, if I can't play a piece through at first sight-reading?"

Sgisela

Agree with the overall sentiment that the way I approach challenge pieces is entirely dependent on the piece and the challenges.

It’s a matter of figuring out for a given challenge, what is the best way to break it down, in order to make progress. This will vary a great deal, but I think in my head, the thing you need to do first is identify and isolate the problems, and keep things simple. So if you’re struggling with coordinating the hands, you should sort that out first before adding any pedal (which is complicating matters, because as soon as you add the pedal, you also need to coordinate your foot).

I could give you specific examples, but I don’t know that they’d be helpful to you.

For this particular piece, it seems like you’re having issues with sharps/flats and separately with hand coordination. In my opinion, the sharps/flats thing needs to be sorted out first, and you’ll have an easier time with this if you separate the hands and get that worked out. Once the accidentals feel more natural/less of a struggle, then put the hands together SLOWLY (much more slowly than what you were able to do comfortably with HT).

That would be my advice from what you’ve indicated the issues are.

Pallas

Sgisela I could give you specific examples, but I don’t know that they’d be helpful to you.

If anyone's interested, I'll post my next video, and ask for specific help with something.

For now, I'm really interested in the general approach each person takes, and I'm reading and considering your contribution to the conversation carefully. Honestly, anything you offer is going to be valuable. I learn a lot by observing how others solve their problems, which is why I have been asking players of all levels to talk about this stuff together. Thank you so much for participating!

Pallas

Sgisela For this particular piece, it seems like you’re having issues with sharps/flats and separately with hand coordination. In my opinion, the sharps/flats thing needs to be sorted out first, and you’ll have an easier time with this if you separate the hands and get that worked out. Once the accidentals feel more natural/less of a struggle, then put the hands together SLOWLY (much more slowly than what you were able to do comfortably with HT).

Thank you! I find that very helpful. It's not always clear to me how to approach problem areas at all, when I've heard some advice that says if there's a problem, you have to address everything all at once or you'll cause yourself even more problems later. I hear in this conversation that taking the problem apart to address the root cause(s), layer by layer, is the way to go. I'm still learning how to diagnose problems, and of course this is exactly what a teacher is for. But I value all of this advice very, very much, as I'm in a period of self learning, and I will take all the help I can get. Thank you.

Stub

I don't think it's possible, especially when you're in the early stages of learning to play, to get everything down at once. The two basic things you do need to get down from the start are the notes and the rhythm. Sometimes getting a tricky rhythm down takes some time, which is okay, but notes and rhythm are the basics. The last thing to get in hand is tempo. As you practice a piece and it starts to gel, tempo usually increases without conscious effort.

When I first start a new piece, I go through hands separately and write in some fingering. It may change as you proceed to HT and increase tempo, but you need a place to start. Also, HS is easier and you can play faster and get a more realistic take on fingering. But write your fingerings in in pencil! If you find yourself often playing a note incorrectly, go back and re-examine your fingering. Very often a change of fingering will cure the ill.

Then come dynamics and the pedal. Playing piano and forte requires physical control, which is something that comes with time, imo. But you want to at least be aware of the dynamic markings and start implementing them. Remember to keep the dynamic marking of the entire piece in mind. If you start off too loud, you'll have to be really, really loud for the f part.

Pedaling, imo, is something to be added at later stages. My teacher always has me starting out without the pedal so that I pay attention to playing legato when it's called for. I can't get away with using the pedal to hide non-legato playing. Pedaling is also one of those things that people disagree about, for example how long to hold it or whether to use it at all. In the end, you have to develop your ear to listen to your pedaling and what sounds good.

Pallas

Stub Oh my gosh, thank you! Seriously, I'm going through this whole thread and scribbling notes. I have an iPad specifically so I don't get eraser crumbs in the keys of My Precious.😜

ShiroKuro

Pallas I'm going through this whole thread and scribbling notes.

You could make a reference for yourself with bullet points so you can refer to it (rather than reading through the whole thread). Like a "practice tips and tricks" cheat sheet. Then when you're stuck with something, look at the bullet points and grab one that seems to fit the problem at hand.

Back when I first joined PW actually, I did something like this based on suggestions that I got there. This was "back in the day" -- as they say -- and I actually printed it out and had it laminated. 😃

I bet I still have that stuck in among my music books somewhere...

Josephine

I do try to learn everything at once, but I start with just one phrase. And when I can play it, notes and rhythm and dynamics (but I try to make the dynamics more beautiful when I learned the piece completely) I go to the next phrase. But I don't know if this is normal or good.

Sophia

Josephine I do try to learn everything at once, but I start with just one phrase

I tend to do that too, though it depends very much on the piece. When I find the rhythm too tricky or both hands need to do something complicated simultaneously, then I'll break it down a little, hands separate and leave the dynamics/pedalling out. But usually, I try everything together first.

JohnCW

Josephine I do try to learn everything at once, but I start with just one phrase. And when I can play it, notes and rhythm and dynamics (but I try to make the dynamics more beautiful when I learned the piece completely) I go to the next phrase. But I don't know if this is normal or good.

It's good enough for Daniel Barenboim to learn piece that way. Just finished reading his autobiography. Doesn't believe in learning hand separate etc. Breaks the piece down into distinct phrases and works on mastering each phrase both hands. THEN puts it all together. So rest assured you are in VERY good company in your approach.

danno858

I used to learn hands separately but I found that didn't work as well for me when I have to play hands together. So I've taken to learning hands together most of the time. Occasionally, I'll practice a short difficult passage with just the hand that needs strengthening. The other thing I do is just work on the passage where I have difficulty for a few days before going back to playing it through all the way. I don't worry too much about dynamics until I can play it through fairly easily

Stub

danno858 I used to learn hands separately but I found that didn't work as well for me when I have to play hands together. So I've taken to learning hands together most of the time. Occasionally, I'll practice a short difficult passage with just the hand that needs strengthening.

HS for places that need work is very useful and something I do all the time.

Sadly, imo, HT ≠ LH+ RH. Hands together is more difficult--we're coordinating our two hands, or un-coordinating them, in some cases, and therefore HS is not terribly useful (again, imo) for getting HT to work smoothly. So, yes, might as well start with HT, with the above caveats.