How Best to Educate Yourself on Classical Repertoire (edit: a listening project)

Pallas · 2024-05-30T17:03:47+00:00

Dear Experienced Pianists, I'm retired and trying to educate myself in the classical piano repertoire by looking at scores and listening to recordings (I do...

David-G

Sgisela VERY GOOD ADVICE !

Rubens

If this is a listening project then I prefer to start with what you already like, not only in classical but in other genres as well. Can you give a few examples of pieces that you really love? Be as eclectic as possible in your examples, but it has to be music that you absolutely love. Then I can give you recommendations in classical music that you may like.

David-G

I discovered much of the classical repertoire (symphonic, chamber, opera, baroque, ... as well as piano) during my seven years at university. Cambridge had a wonderful public library - you could borrow two vinyl records (or boxed sets) at a time, in addition to a number of books. I changed my two records every few days, and discovered reams of music. You could do the same - except that now you don't need to go to a library, as we have youtube. Just listen, listen, listen - you will gradually learn, and you will discover avenues to explore that take your fancy. But it is important to read about the composers and works while you are listening - this is harder nowadays, as in the old days we had extensive sleeve notes as well as thorough booklets in the boxed sets. But Wikipedia will probably have something interesting to say about whatever you are listening to, and you can try to get books which will enable you to read in greater depth.

Where to start? It doesn't really matter. I started with Mozart, because I loved his music even in my early teens, and I went forwards (and backwards) from there.

Perhaps I can give you a few suggestions about Mozart. In addition to the piano sonatas, you absolutely need to listen to his operas - his style is absolutely founded on the interplay of instruments and voices which is at the heart of his operas. And you absolutely need to listen to the piano concerti. They are all wonderful, but perhaps I can suggest in particular K271, K466, K467, K491, K503. And do listen the sublime sonata for two pianos K448, and the quintet for piano and winds K452, and the piano quartets K478 and K493. The quartets and quintets without piano are wonderful; do listen to the G minor quintet K516, one of the few pieces I cannot listen to with dry eyes.

Then there is Schubert - the sonatas, and the impromptus, and the string quartets, and the string quintet are unbelievably wonderful. Listen to Winterreise - it is most important to read the translation of the words while listening, Bleak but wonderful. This is another piece that it is hard to listen to dry-eyed.

Don't forget Haydn. The Creation and the last six Masses are terrific. I find great pleasure in his final sonatas. Listen to Hob XV!/49, 50 and 52 - these last two written in London when Haydn discovered the more powerful English Broadwood piano.

Then there is Beethoven, and the Romantic composers...

Perhaps you should subscribe to a streaming service like Spotify. This would enable you to listen to new recordings when they are released - like I did at Cambridge. There is a sort of frisson of excitement with a new recording, which gives you a reason to listen to that particular music; and which may start a new avenue for exploration. You could subscribe to something like the monthly BBC Music Magazine which has interesting articles, and reviews of new releases.

So as an approach, I would recommend self-exploration, with judicious guidance from various sources.

Enjoy!

Stub

David-G I discovered much of the classical repertoire (symphonic, chamber, opera, baroque, ... as well as piano) during my seven years at university. Cambridge had a wonderful public library - you could borrow two vinyl records (or boxed sets) at a time, in addition to a number of books. I changed my two records every few days, and discovered reams of music. You could do the same - except that now you don't need to go to a library, as we have youtube. Just listen, listen, listen - you will gradually learn, and you will discover avenues to explore that take your fancy. But it is important to read about the composers and works while you are listening - this is harder nowadays, as in the old days we had extensive sleeve notes as well as thorough booklets in the boxed sets. But Wikipedia will probably have something interesting to say about whatever you are listening to, and you can try to get books which will enable you to read in greater depth.

Where to start? It doesn't really matter. I started with Mozart, because I loved his music even in my early teens, and I went forwards (and backwards) from there.

Perhaps I can give you a few suggestions about Mozart. In addition to the piano sonatas, you absolutely need to listen to his operas - his style is absolutely founded on the interplay of instruments and voices which is at the heart of his operas. And you absolutely need to listen to the piano concerti. They are all wonderful, but perhaps I can suggest in particular K271, K466, K467, K491, K503. And do listen the sublime sonata for two pianos K448, and the quintet for piano and winds K452, and the piano quartets K478 and K493. The quartets and quintets without piano are wonderful; do listen to the G minor quintet K516, one of the few pieces I cannot listen to with dry eyes.

Then there is Schubert - the sonatas, and the impromptus, and the string quartets, and the string quintet are unbelievably wonderful. Listen to Winterreise - it is most important to read the translation of the words while listening, Bleak but wonderful. This is another piece that it is hard to listen to dry-eyed.

Don't forget Haydn. The Creation and the last six Masses are terrific. I find great pleasure in his final sonatas. Listen to Hob XV!/49, 50 and 52 - these last two written in London when Haydn discovered the more powerful English Broadwood piano.

Then there is Beethoven, and the Romantic composers...

Perhaps you should subscribe to a streaming service like Spotify. This would enable you to listen to new recordings when they are released - like I did at Cambridge. There is a sort of frisson of excitement with a new recording, which gives you a reason to listen to that particular music; and which may start a new avenue for exploration. You could subscribe to something like the monthly BBC Music Magazine which has interesting articles, and reviews of new releases.

So as an approach, I would recommend self-exploration, with judicious guidance from various sources.

Enjoy!

Gosh, what a great list! I've got my next two years of listening covered!

JB_PT

iternabe I enjoyed reading books by Harold C. Schonberg even before I could play anything or read any music.

How cool...I enjoyed The Great Pianists but it didn't occur to me to look for other books by this author. Great Composers is available at my library; I'll definitely be getting that one. Wish they had the conductors & virtuosi books as well!

Stub

BartK Anyway, FWIW here are some performances I would call absolute classics by legendary pianists. This is of course just the scratching the surface of tip of the iceberg. Maybe you'll like some of them.

The Chopin Scherzo--a couple of years ago we had an afternoon matinee at the college where a guest player spent an hour on this piece. First he played through it, then he played through various parts and explained what was going on--how Chopin was doing this and that with the score, and then played through the entire piece again. It was great.

Pallas

So I started a Coursera course on Classical Music, and I'm afraid I got bored with it and put it down for a while. I decided to restart my project today with Bach. I've borrowed a well reviewed biography (Johann Sebastian Bach : the learned musician by Christoff Wolff) and when I pick it up, I'm also going to borrow some CDs. The library is only one block away, and lucky for me, they still loan out music on CD.

I was really wanting a checklist that I could just follow (start here, listen to this because X, then go here, because Y, then over here, because Z!), because my natural information gathering style sends me down deep stupid rabbit holes, and I do NOT want to end up spending a year listening to Renaissance recorder music, or chanting monks, or pan flute or some crap like that just because I can't flippin FOCUS.

So I'm going to start with a well reviewed biography of Bach (Johann Sebastian Bach : the learned musician by Christoph Wolff) and some CDs from the library. Then I'll do what I do, and look at the bibliography and try to follow the bouncing ball, but so help me if I start posting that I want to buy a harpsichord, somebody PLEASE give me a good shake, because I want to keep the hamsters in charge of my logic circuits focused on the gorgeous acoustic PIANO in my studio!!!

I know what I want, but the hamsters, man. They hijack me ALL THE TIME.

NB: I have a digital piano with several harpsichord settings, so hopefully the hamsters will not demand an "acoustic" harpsichord, which they absolutely will not get, BECKY.

Rubens

Pallas It doesn't have to be that complicated. As I said before, start by telling us what music you enjoy listening to, and then we may be able to take it from there to the classical repertoire. What gets your juices flowing? What music was playing in your head the last time you were in love? That's where you should start. Don't bore yourself with some preestablished classical playlist. This is especially important when you tend to get bored easily!

Pallas

Rubens Perhaps I haven't been super clear. I have a large music library of everything from heavy metal, industrial, punk, EDM, pop and rock from 1980-present, progressive rock, post-rock, grunge, trip-hop, folk, bluegrass, so-called "alt-rock," whatever you want to imagine that is, film soundtracks from SF, fantasy, anime, and so forth, show tunes, and on and on and on. What I have spent very little time listening to is ... Wait for it! "Classical" music as a complete genre. So far, I love Beethoven an unreasonable amount, Chopin, Rachmaninov, Schubert, Schumann, Debussy, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Satie, Ravel, and Scriabin, Philip Glass, Joe Hisaishi, Ryuichi Sakamoto, and my typing finger hurts and I'm tired. 😜😜😜

You're saying don't make it complicated, but my brain is complicated, I'm stuck with my overly complicated thoughts, and have learned to enjoy them, and I like filling in the holes. I like all kinds of music. One side of my brain is systematic and completist, the other is a sack of gerbils on meth. I tried to follow along with the PW listening party but I found it boring without knowing anything about the actual composers.

In college, I took an art history class. The syllabus really helped me stay focused on the story of art. I found the Coursera course boring, because it was very slow, 5-minute videos with a professor who seemed like he was trying to sell people on how great classical music is. I know it's great! When I'm not playing the piano, I have my phone scouring YouTube for piano performance videos I haven't seen yet. I actually don't like the algorithm deciding what to show me, Even though it has shown me some splendid things.

So I might seem all over the place, or maybe like someone who doesn't know where to start. But I've started. I'm way in there. But I really, really enjoy reading lists, and knowing the story of a composer or pianist, and my 100-item Goodreads list just also feels random. I read a biography on Gould then popped over to Bach, and I'm wanting a nice cozy task list to rein in the gerbils.

If any number of variables lined up, I would just take a train into Boston and audit some classical music survey classes, and enjoy the heck out of it. So instead, because those variables aren't lining up, I'm doing it on my own.

Rubens

Pallas
Ok now it's a bit more clear. And accept my apologies for "answering" your question with sort of another question. I hate when people do that. Please don't spray me with your hose of peace. Or maybe do, it's getting a bit hot over here.
I gotta work now, but I'll get back to you later. But I think your project should start from the creative side of your brain. Yes, that sack of gerbils on meth.

ranjit

Pallas One side of my brain is systematic and completist, the other is a sack of gerbils on meth.

That is such a good description. I'm kind of similar.

Pallas

So maybe PT can best help me by making a list of Best Composers of all time, and a separate list of Best pianists of all time, and I can start crossing stuff off I've already been obsessing about to see what's left. I imagine the answer is PLENTY but the algorithm isn't showing me and the research librarians need a more specific question than I currently have. But I suppose I can do that with Wikipedia!

Someone suggested a Norton Anthology, and I've been considering looking at that. For fun.

Pallas

Rubens You are marked SAFE from the hose. 🤣🤣🤣

Stub

The Norton Anthologies might be useful to you. They are a list of sorts with a finite number of pieces and composers. They're not a "greatest hits" compilation, but instead the editor's judgement of pieces and composers that were important in one way or another. The couple of pages of text that go with each selection add background and explication. I wish there had been more from the Big Name composers from the Classic and Romantic eras, but then something else would have been left out.

The anthologies were my introduction to opera. I still wouldn't call myself an opera buff, but at least I've dipped my toes into a number of them. "Batter My Heart" from John Adams' opera Dr. Atomic just blew me away. Hector Berlioz's "Dream of a Witches Sabbath" from his Symphonie fantastique was my first exposure to Berlioz and it was strangely enjoyable. Writing this has made me want to grab Vol. 2 (Classic to Romantic) and give another listen to everything. Oops! Down the rabbit hole I go....🐰

Pallas

Stub They're not a "greatest hits" compilation, but instead the editor's judgement of pieces and composers that were important in one way or another.

This is perfect. Someone has helpfully put together one or two playlists on YouTube of pieces to accompany the anthology. I'm giving it some serious thought! But I also will want to also make a reading list of whatever is considered the "best" (bleah, it is what it is) composers and pianists, because I love looking at a story through people rather than artifacts alone. Thank you for suggesting the Norton.

Pallas

Stub Oops! Down the rabbit hole I go....🐰

Come to the dark side. We have cookies...

Pallas

Stub OMG. Thank you for the tip. I'm going to go check the other things out too, but this is sensational. I'm so glad you mentioned it

Stub

Pallas OMG. Thank you for the tip. I'm going to go check the other things out too, but this is sensational. I'm so glad you mentioned it

Glad you enjoyed it! For those not familiar with the opera, it's about J. Robert Oppenheimer and the making of the first atomic bomb. "Batter My Heart" is a poem by John Donne, who was a favorite poet of Oppenheimer's. He was thinking of this poem when he named the first test site Trinity (trinity--three personed God in the poem). A part of him (Oppenheimer) was very conflicted about unleashing the power of the bomb on the world.

Pallas

ranjit Welcome to the club!

BartK

Here are some channels you might enjoy;

https://m.youtube.com/@ClassicsExplained/videos

https://m.youtube.com/@InsidetheScore/videos

Pallas

BartK Thank you! I appreciate that. I'll look at those today.

hebele

BartK I've just watched a few of ClassicsExplained. Looks great. Turns out the little pieces in my method book have interesting stories! Thanks.

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