Adult Beginners--re-name?

Stub · 2024-05-29T18:54:46+00:00

A topic that kept coming up on PW was the name "Adult Beginners" for the sub-forum. Some found it confusing, or imprecise, but it had been around for a long...

iternabe

Pallas Does the forum have an age restriction during sign up? Or, if we assume there can be non-adult members, should they have a subforum if we insist on having the ABF adult only?

Personally, I can’t think of a reason why any post in this forum would be age inappropriate.

BartK

iternabe Personally, I can’t think of a reason why any post in this forum would be age inappropriate.

Me neither. Anything age inappropriate would probably also be against the rules.

On PW we do get the occasional teenager but that doesn't stop them from asking in the ABF and it shouldn't.

Pallas

iternabe I don't know, Iternabe. Those are really good questions. I honestly can't recall if I read anything when I made an account I must have done, because isn't there always fine print?, but I guess my brain is full up from practicing!

JohnCW

candela In other words, a very big range of people considering themselves beginners. And they are all correct by their own definitions.

I have a much simpler perspective. If someone can only play what are classified 'beginner' pieces, they are a beginner. If that can play pieces considered an intermediate level, they are an intermediate level player, same deal for advanced. No more complicated than that.

Pallas

JohnCW I have a much simpler perspective. If someone can only play what are classified 'beginner' pieces, they are a beginner. If that can play pieces considered an intermediate level, they are an intermediate level player, same deal for advanced. No more complicated than that.

I can totally see your point, John, if I may call you that. I only worry that folks will take that to mean that they aren't allowed to post in a forum if they can't play at a certain level. I don't know about you, but when my high school reunion comes up, I'm always sad that 90% of my friends won't be there, because it's only the graduating class of that year. That's why I'm wondering if thinking about the kind of content that goes into a forum is the most important thing. Like, it's thrilling to see pros helping out the beginners, so I would hope they'd post there. But we both know it gets weird sometimes when somebody decides they're the "teacher" in the beginners forum.

I'm personally hoping the names and descriptions of the forums will help people participate more.

What do you think would help us make the most useful distinction between the forums? The names? The descriptions? It's there something else you think would help us foster great talks in these areas?

candela

JohnCW I still think that there is no universal definition of what a "beginner" piece is. Three blind mice? ABRSM grade 4? Anything below college level? I find any kind of definition extremely culture dependent and this is a global forum with participants from all over the world.

I've played the clarinet and recorder since I was in school a long time ago. Before the internet I had no idea that there were countries where it was common to take exams and define student levels in the beginner - intermediate - advanced categories, as that was unheard of in my country. Still is, afaik. The teachers would choose material that they found suitable for the individual student. I remember finding it hilarious that the clarinet book I was given after having played for two years was called "advanced" on the title page as I saw myself as clearly only in the beginning of my learning. The city-wide school orchestras in my town were called A, B, C, and D respectively, with the A orchestra being for the most proficient players and players moving up as they progressed based on their teacher's assessment or on formal auditions. But apart from that, we didn't ever have any clear reference of our own levels in comparison to others'. I only strived to be better than before and I still don't think primarily about the "level" of pieces as restrictive of what I should or should not play.

Having now played the piano for three years I have no idea how to classify my playing level, but I had a very clear sense that I didn't belong in the pianist corner of that other site.

Ithaca

JohnCW I have a much simpler perspective. If someone can only play what are classified 'beginner' pieces, they are a beginner. If that can play pieces considered an intermediate level, they are an intermediate level player, same deal for advanced. No more complicated than that.

I wonder how you would classify someone like me. When I was 11 or 12 - so 1-2 years before I quit lessons - I was playing an arrangement of Revolutionary Etude. But the big run at the beginning was the same as the original score, and I could play at tempo (or even faster than what my teacher thought the tempo should be) with crispness and ease. My teacher was very, very happy with it, and I personally thought it was glorious. I think most people would not say that someone like that qualifies as a beginner. But for a number of reasons - beyond 35+ years off from lessons - I'm currently struggling through the beginning of John Thompson's Grade 2 book. Badly. (Yesterday morning, I discovered that if I try to play first thing in the morning, pre-caffeine, when I'm dead tired and feel completely uncoordinated, 95% of the mistakes go away. I tried the same again this morning, with the same result. I'll try it again tomorrow, if I have time, to suss out what's happening.) I think that many people, if they saw what I was playing, and heard how I was playing it, would cringe, and think - total noob, and a bad one at that. Certainly, many of my concerns are what I think belong to a beginner-level group.

If we go by your idea of who is classified as a beginner, I would be afraid to post my questions in either the beginner forum or the intermediate forum.

JohnCW

Pallas What do you think would help us make the most useful distinction between the forums? The names? The descriptions? It's there something else you think would help us foster great talks in these areas?

As I said in an early comment, I think a forum called 'Beginner' should be just that, for people from Day 1 to early-intermediate. And that doesn't include topics about recitals, what intermediate level pieces should I play, or dozens of other topics that potentially make a true beginners feel they may be out of their depth or embarrassed to ask the most simple questions.

So where do the intermediate level players hang out, in their own forum. From some of the perspectives held by others may as well call it something like Non Professional Forum, its that broad.

HeartKeys

I think the most important thing, regardless of titles of forums, is that if someone posts, that we don’t get comments like, “uh this is for pianists you idiot” or “lol shouldn’t this be in the beginners forum” or comments/posts with that vibe.

There will always be some posts and people who fall in a nebulous category.

We need to have a forum that encourages people to give their best shot at posting in whichever one they feel makes sense. Providing a welcome space.

And treat them respectfully.

Pallas

JohnCW Well, the lovely thing about us being here at the start is we can ask for changes, see what happens, see which forums get used most by whom and for what, and make changes until activity is meeting most people's needs. Thank you for reiterating your concern that people who are still learning at the beginner level have a place to feel comfortable. That includes me. I'm still in my first method book, and I have tended to stay inside the clearly labeled Alfred threads, so I think I do get where you're coming from.

I like mingling, but I also like to feel comfortable with my peers. It's a really interesting problem.

Pallas

JohnCW
Re: in the Beginners form, avoiding "topics that potentially make a true beginners feel they may be out of their depth or embarrassed to ask the most simple questions."

I think this is so important. I would be thrilled if we can help this happen.

Pallas

candela Having now played the piano for three years I have no idea how to classify my playing level, but I had a very clear sense that I didn't belong in the pianist corner of that other site.

I would love to see that change here, for it to be clear which content (not which people) gets put where and to what purpose. It has to serve all of us, whatever those choices are.

JohnCW

candela ABRSM grade 4?

Grade 4 is intermediate level.

That people think 'piano corner' is too advanced on PW so people stick in the 'beginner' forum actually highlights the need for a forum level in between beginner and advanced.

Quitter

candela I still think that there is no universal definition of what a "beginner" piece is. Three blind mice? ABRSM grade 4? Anything below college level? I find any kind of definition extremely culture dependent and this is a global forum with participants from all over the world.

There is no universal definition of ANYTHING on the Internet. 😉. I've played in a trio for 26 years. Last year, we played 117 gigs here during the "Snowbirds" season in Arizona. I've been told that I'm not a professional because my main income came a day job. The other 2 (husband and wife) must be pros because the trio is their only source of income. On a guitar forum, it was said that people who use backing tracks aren't musicians, it's karaoke. So we aren't musicians because we don't have a drummer and bass player in the group. (If we had a drummer and bass player, we couldn't play most venues here as the stages are too small. Also, with a 5-way split, the they couldn't afford to play for a living)

The membership in PW and PianoClack, (and here I suspect) are pretty diverse in their opinions about any piano related subject, including what is a piano! If you ask opinions about anything, you will get a huge diversity of answers. Just like what we are seeing in this thread about whether to change the name of the Adult Beginners forum.

Personally, I enjoy the diversity, and like watching the debates, as long as folks remain somewhat respectful.

I'd like to propose the new name be: "The forum formerly known as AdultBeginners". 😉

candela

Pallas Yes, let's hope so. But I think there should also be somewhere for the professionals to feel at home without dabblers like me disturbing without anything meaningful to contribute.

candela

JohnCW Well, I've seen different definitions, of what levels belong to beginner etc. Some say beginner is 1-4, intermediate 5-6, and advanced 7-8. But that was not really my point. Rather that not everybody follows the ABRSM or any other specific syllabus nor thinks in those terms at all. Some may focus only on classical solo repertoire but still not within any syllabus, some are only interested in learning accompaniment with their main focus on chords and harmonisation etc. Some struggle with rhythm or phrasing but are excellent at playing the right pitches by ear, some are the opposite. Some have a very good grasp of theory but very little playing experience etc. It's impossible to place everybody on a one-dimensional scale without loosing a lot of nuance. In other words there are things to be learned from students at different "levels" which would be lost with too many walls and subfora.

But I do understand your underlying point. I did find the ABF and especially the recitals intimidating as well as poorly named when I first joined a couple of years ago. Honestly, my main reason for participating in my first recital was to lower the level a bit as it seemed unusual for first-year students to participate. But I don't think setting a hard ABRSM 3 upper limit is the answer. Many participants here are very diligent and would quickly outgrow that, and I doubt there would be enough participation to sustain such a forum. It seems a handful people have joined ABF every year but only a few stick around as regulars.

Btw, here in Sweden I couldn't take in-person instrumental exams even if I wanted to as none are offered. Therefore, I truly have no idea where to place myself on something like the abrsm scale. On the other hand everybody that went to school here has had compulsory weekly music lessons for at least nine years even if they never studied an instrument.

I agree with the suggestions above of focusing on the aspect that we are all learners. I found "Learner's lounge" an excellent suggestion.

Pallas

Ok, just tossing some more ideas out.
How would this feel?

BEGINNERS
Although anyone's welcome to participate, this is a supportive, judgement-free zone for topics of interest to brand new piano learners. Don't be shy. All questions are good questions.

AMATEUR PIANISTS
Although anyone's welcome to participate, this is a welcoming, fun (adjective adjective) place that focuses on topics of general interest to all players (dabblers, hobbyists, serious students, etc.)

PROFESSIONAL PIANISTS
Although anyone's welcome to participate, this forum is focused on topics of interest to serious, advanced, and professional pianists.

What do you all think?
(I don't intend to come across as writing the text for the site. It's not my site. It's just ideas to kick around, to see what might help more people feel comfortable contributing.)

Stub

BartK JohnCW I think a forum segment called "Adult Beginners" should be pretty much strictly that, a section for 'beginners'. It was my impression the majority of posts in the PW forum of that name were anything but that, and should have been in the 'grown up' sections of Classical, Non Classical segment.

BartK The problem with that is that beginners who stick around don't stay beginners very long. Are you going to tell them to leave the forum when they graduate to intermediates? That isn't exactly friendly. I much prefer the tradition of having dedicated discussions where the true beginners hang out, like the Alfred's discussion.

Agree.
If the subforum is restricted to true beginners (if you could even agree on what that term means) what are you going to do if you have a question? You can crowd-source it amongst your fellow true beginners, but that doesn't mean the question will get answered. As for topics making beginners feel out of their depth or embarrassed to ask a question, well, that is going to happen no matter what level you're at. If you have a true beginner question, ask it. It will serve to notify other true beginners that asking is okay. You'll get more beginner questions.

A dedicated thread makes more sense if one truly doesn't want input from those at different levels.

Pallas

Stub You can crowd-source it amongst your fellow true beginners,

I actually hate this (for myself). When I ask a newbie question, I want someone who definitely knows more than I do to answer it. Preferably many, many someones. That's why I've been hoping to focus on which content goes where, rather than which people go where. I should count myself very lucky indeed to get advice from some of our esteemed and very professional professionals!

Stub

Learners Lounge and Pianist Zone. (Or better yet substitute Corner or Zone for Lounge, which to me has a somewhat shady connotation.)

Pallas

Stub Lounge lizards in leisure suits! 🤣

WieWaldi

Stub Or better yet substitute Corner or Zone for Lounge, which to me has a somewhat shady connotation.

Haha, as someone who skips classical music and directly want to go the jazzy way, I second that.
Lounge sounds so much better than Zone, so much more relaxed. Zone has something restrictive. About Corner, well okay... but I would prefer lounge.

If you are a professional player and you want to relax with easy stuff, come here, sit down in the Beginners Lounge, you are welcome.

Stub

Pallas Stub You can crowd-source it amongst your fellow true beginners,

I actually hate this (for myself). When I ask a newbie question, I want someone who definitely knows more than I do to answer it. Preferably many, many someones. That's why I've been hoping to focus on which content goes where, rather than which people go where. I should count myself very lucky indeed to get advice from some of our esteemed and very professional professionals!

My point exactly--you want a response from someone who has more knowledge that you do at the early stage of learning you're at. I learned a lot from someone--a beginner--asking a question and then receiving responses from people with different histories, experience, and knowledge levels.

I really do like the concept of the name not specifying level, but rather the student/learning aspect.

Pallas

Quitter I'd like to propose the new name be: "The forum formerly known as AdultBeginners". 😉

I categorically agree with everything you said. It's the same with writers. It's the same with visual art too. On your forum name suggestion, all I could think of was the Artist Formerly Known as Prince, so I guess someone would have to create a nice confusing symbol 🎹🦇🎹 or 🐱🎹🐱. 😜

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