As long as they don't stop trying to replicate the sound and touch of an acoustic piano I agree. But it's a different instrument, and not something I'm looking for per se.
Can even the top end hybrids really satisfy a grand player?
TheBoringPianist Very true. It’s interesting how many of the best digitals seem to skimp on the overall quality of the speakers/speaker system used. Even if they had superb samples inside, the speaker system wouldn’t maintain the quality of the samples.
The best speaker system I’ve seen thus far was on the Yamaha CLP-785. Good speakers inside the piano part, and the base was also full of speakers and transducers.
That and the Kawai CA-series with the soundboard seem to do the best overall job.
I think Roland has one or two with some great speakers, too.
But I’d really love to see an overall improvement with the speakers in the upper level digitals.
Speaking of speakers (hehe), here again I'm thinking that maybe to compensate for their limitations we could take advantage of other parameters such as the number of speakers (the more the merrier?), and the location of the speakers (like in movie theaters??). All in the theme of using the advantages of a digital system to compensate for its limitations...
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Taushi It’s interesting how many of the best digitals seem to skimp on the overall quality of the speakers/speaker system used. Even if they had superb samples inside, the speaker system wouldn’t maintain the quality of the samples.
My and other peoples digi pianos have speakers that provide sound pretty much directly to our ears .... plus some reverb effects and other environment effects. When we play these pianos, and when we have much experience and music and audio passion as you, and have hearing as good as you, and we say that the digitals provide adequate substance in sound and music expressiveness (and not to forget we play acoustic grand pianos too) for generating excellent music - then it's a case of your opinions against ours. So it pretty much is even. That's not unusual.
Rubens I’d love to see this. In my Casio, the lid lifts to show the hammers moving. But I wish they’d taken that opportunity to aim the speakers AT the listener instead of just pointing them up in the air.
And many digitals have speakers that are either under the instrument, or on top of the instrument pointed upwards, or in the instrument but not really considerate of the location of speakers. The way the speakers are aimed have a lot to do with creating the stereo image, and even overcoming some of the limitations inherent in most set ups.
I’d also love lots more speakers. If they’re going to use such small ones, they can least fill them up lol. That too would do well to deal with some of the sonic limitations we see in many digitals.
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Taushi But I wish they’d taken that opportunity to aim the speakers AT the listener instead of just pointing them up in the air
I have a similar wish, or preference for the speakers to be optimized for more holistic sound, with speakers pointed towards player, or ability to add more, etc.
My best guess of why they don’t, is that manufacturers aim to make them aesthetically look more like an acoustic upright/grand. Having additional tweeters, speakers etc take away the look of an acoustic. Just a guess.
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Taushi And many digitals have speakers that are either under the instrument, or on top of the instrument pointed upwards, or in the instrument but not really considerate of the location of speakers.
The low frequencies are not directional. Subwoofer placement is usually determined based on room mode - that is to avoid having dip (point of cancellation from direct and reflected sound wave) at the listener location. For DP, it would mean finding the proper distance from the wall.
The mid frequencies are not very sensitive to speaker aiming. So they could be firing upwards and straight without causing big difference in listening experience.
It’s the high frequency tweeters that needs to be precisely aimed. Not only need they be at the ear level, but they also need to toed in so that the center line extending from the tweeter intersects with the corresponding ear (left, or right). In addition, Harman Kardon research has established that the lateral off-axis frequency response linearity of the tweeter is almost as important as on-axis frequency response. If you noticed the intricate shape of the tweeter waveguides in Harmon/JBL speakers, that’s what makes them special.
Good sounding studio monitors costs at least $400 and upwards. It makes sense to that DP makers do not want to add that to their cost, with no guarantee of good result because limitation for precise placement, and considering people who really care will probably buy their own studio monitors. Upgraded built-in speaker may only make sense for those really high-end DP/Hybrid that is designed to look like an acoustic piano.
Taushi The way the speakers are aimed have a lot to do with creating the stereo image, and even overcoming some of the limitations inherent in most set ups.
I have a question regarding stereo image. I have no experience with acoustic piano at all. But I wonder, when playing acoustic piano, do you really hear the bass notes coming from the left side, and the treble notes coming from the right side? Although the sound originates from the corresponding string, is it the soundboard that we are actually hearing? And the soundboard is a really large surface, the opposite to a point source.
If your answer is yes, you do hear notes seem to come from the direction of their location on the keyboard, then I ask you to further consider whether that is due to hearing it, or psychologically imagining it. I have seen people pinpointing source direction of low frenquency sound (which is impossible in theory) based on visual feedback.
iternabe whether that is due to hearing it, or psychologically imagining it
I would reckon it’s both. Perception is a fascinating thing. I’ve been to an audiologist recently because I felt my left ear is quieter than right ear.
Audiologist indicated it’s in my brain processing, versus a physical issue. I was at first skeptical, but it makes sense (for my own case).
(I know this subtopic may be off from the main topic)
Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem much like the digital piano makers take into account any of what you’ve said with speaker placement or choice.
And while good monitors cost that much for the consumer, I think digital piano/keyboard makers would probably get a much lower price in production when they just have to buy the internal parts, and would be buying at scale. Most of the major companies pay pennies for what the consumer spends dollars on.
As for the stereo image, I’m less referring to a sense individual notes coming from a particular direction, and more referring more to the entire wall of sound that comes from the instrument. The sound from a piano comes, as you pointed out, from the very, very large soundboard, and also from additional resonances in the actual body of the instrument. When you reduce that to a few tiny speakers, that overall sense of sound is loss.
Headphones help with this, as do properly calibrated and aimed monitors. Speakers, also properly calibrated and aimed inside the body of the instrument, especially those which benefit from aiming, as well as overall proper placement would help with creating that sense of sound.
As it stands, the vast majority of digitals do not do well at recreating that sense of sound.
Of course, no digital is going to sound like a real piano at a 1:1 level, but I do think more speakers and better speaker placement would do a great deal toward closing the gap more.
And, of course, one wouldn’t expect this in every digital - the entry-level and medium-tier ones probably wouldn’t have this. But for the ones costing into the several thousand, especially those aiming at great authenticity, I think this should be par the course.
iternabe But I wonder, when playing acoustic piano, do you really hear the bass notes coming from the left side, and the treble notes coming from the right side?
Yes, but it's not quite as prominent as you'd hear in say, anipiano recordings. The effect is more prominent the closer you get to the rim, so mic'ing can make a difference here on acoustics (I've heard actually that classical recordings tend to emphasize the lid and room reverb more, whereas more "modern" piano piece recordings place mics in a way that bring out the stereo separation.
On my piano, I can switch between digital (both headphones and under-the-soundboard speakers) and acoustic mode, and I always feel that I can perceive the stereo separation, but I don't really "miss" it when outputting mono. My guess is that its impact is generally eclipsed by all of the other differences that come to the fore during acoustic play.
However, when listening to piano recordings on YT, it bothers me greatly when a piano is mic'd from the "audience" perspective, because I'm really used to hearing the clear bass-left, treble-right separation when using headphones.
One of my motivations for the custom hybrid is that it can be put on any piano action.
For example a "top end" action.
Puts the user in control of everything: electronics, algorithms, features, piano action.
But doesn't yet have the accuracy or features to be counted "top end hybrid". I am optimistic but no guarantees.
And doesn't solve the sound problem.
And isn't easy to make.
There's very little low bass in a piano, so I wouldn't bother with a subwoofer. When playing even the lowest note on a concert grand you mostly hear harmonics.
johnstaf There's very little low bass in a piano, so I wouldn't bother with a subwoofer. When playing even the lowest note on a concert grand you mostly hear harmonics.
I have not paired a decent subwoofer with a digital speaker system, so take this for what it's worth--but I can see why it would seem desirable. On a large grand, when struck moderately loudly, there's a huge reverberation that you don't necessarily hear, but you feel it cause your body/head/chest to vibrate. Even if I cough or sneeze at the bench, I can hear and feel the piano's soundboard respond and it in turn causes a physical rumble feedback that I can feel in my body.
I've never gotten that feeling with a stock digital sound system (even augmented with 5" drivers), but the cough thing aside, I can image why people might seek a subwoofer for that more visceral response that is lacking with regular speakers?
Gombessa My JBL 306p studio monitor (6" driver) specs says it goes down to 47Hz (-3dB). That frequency is just below G1, according to this. A0 is 27.5Hz and certainly would need a sizable subwoofer to reproduce at adequate sound pressure level.
One other problem of introducing a subwoofer to home studio setup is proper EQ at the crossover. To achieve a smooth transition from speaker to subwoofer would require careful frequency response measurement, room treatment and digital EQ.
6 days later
I have a subwoofer for my digital piano, and also a large concert acoustic piano. I feel the bass strongly in both yet in different ways.
For the digital, I feel it primarily in my feet area, and none in the keys. It’s more acute and localized.
In the acoustic, it’s more visceral. And I feel it primarily in the keys but also elsewhere. I wonder if the room setup plays a part as well. Having a large grand in a room, versus a concert hall, potentially concentrates the bass more.