How soundboard wood species affects tone

shawarma_bees · 2024-05-27T12:12:58+00:00

Spruce is by far the most common choice for soundboard wood, with desirable structural and acoustic properties that make it well-suited for the piano. Sitka...

Vuong

trecorda
An old but not well designed soundboard (old wood ) surely does not sound good.
Old growth wood still exists in the Vale di Fiemme, Italy where the forest is protected and old trees are still preserved and carefully harvested. I had the opportunity to travel to Tesero to visit the firm Ciresa which supplies wood from old trees to Sauter to build the soundboard of the Omega 220 and the Master Class pianos. These pianos surely sound lovely as stated by Trecorda.

trecorda

Vuong Hi Vuong,
I have tried an Omega and the Maly Ambient semi concert grands and yes the tone is wonderful! These were new pianos. However I have compared the MC upright pianos of the same size with the regular Classic models and on both those occasions there was no real difference in either pianos regarding tone or action. They were both very nice. The one MC 130 was a touch brighter than the regular Classic models.
So I really cannot say that there was any improvement in tone. They all have a very typical Sauter colour. I prefer the Omega tone to the Delta. This may be because the Omega is a semi concert grand and the Delta is 6' instrument. While saying that if under right circumstances I could have a Delta grand, (if we were 20 years younger), I would be very happy. In fact we nearly bought one in 2022. It was one of the loveliest grands I have played.

brdwyguy

Does anyone know how many trees are used for ONE Piano Soundboard? (Let's say a concert S&S D)
I guess what I'm saying is the soundboard wood all made from one particular tree?

Especially for European Brands such as: Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Bluthner, Fazioli, Sauter?

Could be an interesting topic, would like to hear from someone who actually works in those factories in that section?

brdwyguy

Vuong

brdwyguy
I inquired with the firm Ciresa in the Val di Fiemme, Italy, which supplies the red spruce wood to piano manufacturers to build their soundboards. I append with this post the answers by Mrs Ciresa, the owner of the company.

The Val di Fiemme forest was fortunately well managed for centuries until now and there are still old growths left so only a tree of 150 to 200 yo can be harvested

Player1

brdwyguy

You can calculate how much wood is used for a piano soundboard. Square area times 1 inch thick equals "board feet." Board feet is the measurement used to calculate how much wood is in a tree based on a 1 foot square of wood that is 1 inch thick. A 6X12 that's 2 inches thick is still one board foot.

So, if a piano soundboard is 7X5 feet that's 35 square feet of surface area. If it's a half-inch (13mm) thick it's 18 board feet (rounded) of lumber. And so on according to the math required.

Trees usually have hundreds of board feet of lumber in them so one tree can probably make several piano soundboards and the associated ribs depending on how the tree is milled and if the lumber is suitable over the entire tree.

pianoloverus

trecorda OK but this has nothing to do with my post.

trecorda

Indirectly it implies what you say, in the uprights anyway. Some of the instruments have different wood species like the MC uprights (special Italian wood) to the Classic series which has regular Alpine spruce. These sound and play (to me) very similar to the Classic 122 and 130 uprights .The MC 122 and 130.do have better hardware like the special hygrometer inside, walnut hammerheads but still the same quality Abel hammers. The cabinet is especially beautifully made. The full Concert grand, the Omega and the Ambient semi concert grands do have the Stradivari spruce while the Delta (6') and the small Alpha grand do not, (Alpine spruce) although the size differences in those will have the largest impact on the sound. One has to say that the Omega grand I think is probably the Sauter masterpiece. (from what I have read)
Having tried the Omega and the Delta, both are excellent grands in sound and action. I have played a few Delta grands although only two semi concert grands. (the Omega and the Maly Ambient grand) So no really cannot say that the wood species definitely makes a difference, I do not know. They all sound very much like Sauter pianos which I love. I am sorry but this does not prove anything definite pianoloverus.

trecorda

Thanks Vuong,
The letter is interesting and informative. When it comes to playing the Delta and comparing the Omega tone quality I do obviously prefer the Omega. I have not compared these in the same room. I also know that the Omega is one of best made semi concert grands around. (it has a reputation for its excellence) I have not played enough of these instruments to be able to say how much the different spruce contributes to the excellent tone. You have a wonderful top tier grand, something to love and be proud of.

Vuong

trecorda
Tre,
From the answer of the owner of the firm Ciresa, the soundboard of your Sauter piano is from a tree of the old growth between 150 to 200 year old. I do not know how old a Sitka spruce tree is, when it is harvested for soundboard wood.

trecorda

Vuong Interesting Vuong, it’s an interesting document about this Ceresa spruce. Sitka is the spruce grown in North America is that correct? I suppose used in New York Steinway pianos.

Vuong

keff
A 40 yo Sitka spruce tree appears to be not old enough for a piano soundboard. The red spruce tree of the Val di Fiemme, Italy is harvested only when it is between 150 to 200 yo in order to use its wood for the piano soundboard, according to the firm Ciresa of Tesero (Val di Fiemme).

Vuong

trecorda
Sitka spruce is indeed used for Steinway soundboard. The Bolduc Company uses white spruce to supply soundboard to Schimmel.
In the US once there were growths of red spruce in the eastern part of the US. But due to mismanagement and greed of the lumber industry there is none of them left.

Seeker

Vuong In the US once there were growths of red spruce in the eastern part of the US. But due to mismanagement and greed of the lumber industry there is none of them left.
Vuong - it's not QUITE that bad. The old growth stands are gone, but at least the tree is not extinct. I was heartened to find this https://buynhseedlings.com/product/spruce-red-3-0/ on the NH State Forest Nursery website. Looks like they've got 2000 seedling, probably like sticks with bare roots, in stock. I took advantage of a similar program in my state of Maryland about 7 years ago - got 40 Redbuds for about $1.00 each. I've got 9 gorgeous trees on our suburban lot, gave some to neighbors, and there are a few more around now. Wonder how we could convince Steinway, other companies, to invest in reforesting some place up north? Yes, I know, companies are focused short term, but what the heck, we can make the effort.

brdwyguy

Vuong I wonder has there ever been a comparison of Sitka, White, Red Spruce in soundboards.
Do they each have a slightly different tone?
Does one give a fuller or brighter sound?

That would mean that each soundboard would have to go into a piano with the exact same specs, except for the soundboard. Probably not a realistic thing to compare, but could be really interesting.

brdwyguy

Vuong

Seeker
Hello Seeker: I commend you for your interest in resurrecting the red spruce forest in the US. The endeavor is worthwhile, even if it takes 200 years for a tree to be ready to be harvested for a soundboard. We have to think about the generations of piano builders of the distant future.

Seeker

Vuong Thanks. I guess it's just how I'm wired. I prune old trees, remove them when necessary; I plant new ones. My wife and I compost using a Lomi for household scraps; we take larger compostable items to a communal drop off; we garden organically as much as possible in our vegetable as well as our flower gardens; we have an RO filter for our drinking water. Anyhow, thought I'd let folks know who might be in a climate zone where Red Spruce will grow about the NH offer.

Vuong

Seeker
The meeting of the minds. I too have a garden and make about a one cubic meter of compost every year to help my melon and tomato plants and others. Good luck with your red spruce endeavor.

sweelinck

It is not just old growth that matters, but also slow growth due to elevation and/or latitude.

I think Alaska and Siberia still have significant stands of tonewood-quality timber.

Vuong

sweelinck
Sitka spruce comes from Alaska. Since Alaska is the largest state in the US, there is fortunately still quite a few of the old growth of those spruce. What is interesting is the Val Di Fiemme in Italy is not very large. However It is has been well managed for centuries, even before the time of Stradivari until the present time. It is at a relatively northern latitude and is also at a fairly high elevation so the trees can grow slowly, yielding excellent wood to build for the sound board.

sweelinck

The producers using wood from there generally are small producers, so it still can support them. While wood from the same valley as where Stradivari sourced wood makes a nice marketing story, I think the likes of Fazioli and Boesendorfer would make pianos just as good with Alaskan Sitka Spruce, or other spruce tonewoods.

Even Stradivari violins may have been a bit overhyped through the centuries:

https://www.science.org/content/article/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check

Vuong

sweelinck
Stradivari violins are certainly well made violins. At the same time there were also Guarneri violins which were also well built. These people happened to live in Italy and the nearest area for them to source there wood was the Val Di Fiemme. At that time it was quite hard for any of these luthiers to travel far to look for wood. If for some reason they happen to live in Alaska, then surely they would have used Sitka spruce.. Both types of spruce need the skill of the luthier to be incorporated in the building of the instrument for it to be a good violin. The marketing hype of the 20th and 21th centuries is only one example of modern capitalism to fill the pockets of some people.

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