How soundboard wood species affects tone

shawarma_bees

Spruce is by far the most common choice for soundboard wood, with desirable structural and acoustic properties that make it well-suited for the piano. Sitka spruce - which is also used for guitar soundboards - seems to be the most common variety, used by Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, and others. But there are other wood varieties used ostensibly for their more desirable acoustic properties, including European spruce (Bosendorfer uses Alpine European spruce), Italian spruce (Fazioli uses spruce from the same region that Stradivari sourced wood for his violins), Eastern white spruce (Mason & Hamlin), Engelmann spruce, and even redwood.

My question is: how does the soundboard wood species affect the tone of the piano? If you were having a piano rebuilt and soundboard replaced, is there any reason to choose a specific wood variety over another based on the desired tone? I know that for guitars, the soundboard wood can have a significant impact on how the instrument sounds (e.g., Sitka providing greater punch and dynamic range, and cedar producing a softer, warmer, and more harmonically complex sound).

I understand that there used to be a "wood expert" on PW, who has since left many years ago. Are there any remaining domain experts around? Are there any books or other resources on this topic?

sweelinck

shawarma_bees
Yamaha uses European spruce for the SX series grands and Asian spruce for at least some other pianos. They may also use Sitka spruce.

Joseph-Fleetwood

There are those who think that the species is more important, and there are those who think the design and build of the soundboard trumps the species every time. I'll be interested to hear how this plays out!

Vuong

Joseph-Fleetwood
I have had a Sauter grand Delta 185 which has a sound board made of Alpine European spruce. I also have now the Sauter Omega 220 which has the sound board made of red spruce of the Val Di Fiemme. Both pianos sound very good and I have talked about their good sound to the piano makers of Sauter, when I visited the factory in Spaichingen. I was told that the design and build of the sound board is more important than the wood used.

keff

I was in the Whinlater forest (UK Lake District) a month or so ago which was heavily planted with Sitka spruce forty years ago. Some areas of spruce are now being cleared and replanted with a mix of deciduous hardwoods. Each felled tree had about forty rings confirming its age but what came as a surprise was how straight they had grown reaching about sixty foot. As an amateur cabinet maker I had no option but to think why wouldn't you want to make a sound board from such straight grained timber.

Vuong

keff
A 40 yo Sitka spruce tree appears to be not old enough for a piano soundboard. The red spruce tree of the Val di Fiemme, Italy is harvested only when it is between 150 to 200 yo in order to use its wood for the piano soundboard, according to the firm Ciresa of Tesero (Val di Fiemme).

Bellyman

It would be an interesting question to ask Del Fandrich. Not sure if he's pokin' around this forum or not. (?)

Rubens

Reading this thread immediately brings back memories of a Samick with a meatloaf (composite) soundboard on PW. It did not sound good.

Bellyman

Rubens Reading this thread immediately brings back memories of a Samick with a meatloaf (composite) soundboard on PW. It did not sound good.

There was a cheap spinet sized piano quite a few years ago that used a laminated soundboard, can't remember the brand. It wasn't anything to listen to, either.

I'm thinking that there is a much more upscale piano, the name "Phoenix" comes to mind (?), something like a 7' grand maybe?, that used a carbon fiber soundboard and people have noted that it sounds pretty good. It's been sampled and used as a virtual instrument. Have heard it described as a cross between some of the top pianos which suggests that perhaps it is possible to have a decent outcome with boards other than the typical single layer Sitka Sruce.

Bellyman

Pallas I think it's Steingraeber. On YouTube, there's a Merriam Music video where Stu demos it.

Cool! I'll have to look for it. Thanks!

Player1

Vuong I was told that the design and build of the sound board is more important than the wood used.

In a way, this is true. In a way, no it's not.

The wood has to have certain characteristics, straight tight grain, acoustic resonance, and so on. The design is also important because it has to consider the wood species, grain density, resonance, and so on.

So both are important. The decisions that are made in wood species affects the overall tone of the finished soundboard, and vice versa because designers can model the design to accommodate whatever specific wood species is selected.

Seeker

Vuong I was told that the design and build of the sound board is more important than the wood used.

WRT to whoever said that to you, I don't agree at all. No way to prove it, but I don't believe that would be true across all piano makers. When my 1929 Steinert went to Cantabile in NY for a rebuild, we reused the original sound board. It came back with the same basic core of the sound, but opened up and amplified bottom to top. If we'd opted for a different board, I would have had a different piano.

Friend of mine just had a very rare 9'6" M&H concert grand go through a similar process - save the old soundboard, shim, trim, shave, adjust ribs if necessary, restring with high quality wire for the unwound and HellerBass. Looks gorgeous, and according to the pianist who tried it, the sound is AMAZING.

So, in these cases, as I believe is true in many others, not only does the species of the soundboard matter, but the age. We don't have wood like the old growth wood that went into those boards.

I have played several Cantabile rebuilds with new soundboards, and they sound great, but they don't sound like the old boards, not to my ears, anyway.

trecorda

I think that's also the case with the uprights, especially the 122 and the 130.

trecorda

King, I see you have Delta and an Omega. I love both of those especially the Omega. Beautiful pianos! I am relpying to King.(not good at this yet)
I am not deliberately trying to be an exclusive Sauterine.

trecorda

Aparently Fazioli would use laminated Soundboards if requested on their fabulous grands. I am sure it's done very well. ( I guess for people live in challenging climate conditions)
I feel slightly more at home here with a few other Sauterines (we are a rare breed but we love that silvery tone and the pianos response) and other new members from PW who have only just joined. I cannot explain why?
I still need to hold on to my membership on PW as well. I owe it to them, especially Frank.

trecorda

I have only just discovered that Sauterne is a French sweet wine. ..or is it Sauterine? I did not mean that!😚 So no not much of a wine expert at all. Never really drink alcohol. Wrong term I apologize!

Vuong

trecorda
Chateau d'Yquem is a world renown Sauternes. You need to have just only a sip to appreciate it even if you are not a wine drinker.

Vuong

trecorda
Let's go back to discussing the spruce wood for soundboard.

trecorda

Well the humidity has been much lower here. So I have had the piano covered. The humidifier going. It's not conducive to practicing , first remove the covers etc
It's also overdue for a service, just mainly tuning needed so the technician comes on Wednesday. I wish all this snow would melt.
So do you think there is a large difference in the sound between your Omega and the Delta Vuong? Do you think it's the.different species of `wood that makes the difference?

Vuong

trecorda
As I have stated already above, the sound of the Delta is as good as the one of the Omega. If there is any difference in tone it is because the Omega is larger and has a different design than the Delta. It appears the design of the soundboard is more important than the species of wood.

pianoloverus

trecorda The only way to tell if the the different soundboard wood makes a difference is to build two identical pianos where the only difference is the soundboard wood. Otherwise, any difference in tone could be a result of numerous other design or execution differences in the pianos or many other factors like voicing, the humidity in the room, and even the pianist's mood on a given day.

trecorda

Vuong Yes they are both very good as we know. The Omega achieved a very real level of being known as a great semi concert grand, I think.

trecorda

pianoloverus Actually the correct answer about soundboard wood or a great design does not bother me. I know whatever it is the quality of wood or the design of the soundboard Sauter achieves it's goal. So if you love the sound a piano produces and the response is great that is all that matters. So I agree with Vuong about this and yes they are lovely instruments.
.

Vuong

Player1
The choice of the wood can be appreciated as I owned the Sauter Delta which used Bavarian wood. The Sauter piano manufactured obviously designs the sound board according to this spieces of wood. I also owns a Sauter Omega and he same thing can be said about the design of the Sauter Omega sound board.. The result is that both pianos sound good to me.