Video: what separates intermediate from beginner pianists

ShiroKuro · 2024-05-20T01:40:06+00:00

I have been referring to myself as an intermediate player for many, many years at this point, but I generally explain what that means by talking about reper...

Stub

Beginner to advanced--it's a sliding scale, as always. A more meaningful (but hugely more complicated) descriptor would be to go through the major skills and say, for example, early intermediate at reading, late beginner at dynamics, beginner at pedaling and so forth. Probably nobody is at the same stage for every skill involved in piano playing.

SouthPark

thepianoplayer416 About 5 years ago I was at a gathering. A mother asked her kids who learned piano and passed conservatory levels to play something. There was silence in the room (nobody volunteered). To be fair, nobody touched a piano after their last piano lesson /music exam years ago. There are people who treat piano playing like academic exercises. Some would only practice for a teacher. Once they stop taking lessons, the piano just sit at home like a piece of furniture. I play music for stress relief and always find interesting pieces to learn. The ones I played yesterday I'd be able to play on a public piano. Maybe not the whole song but at least a few lines which isn't too unreasonable.

That's the thing. Everyone is different from each other. I feel that - regardless of how much piano anybody has played or learned it, and how much they take a break, no-one should be pressured into doing something that they don't want to do, not even performing for family members etc. What they have learned isn't wasted at all. The methods and techniques they did learn or absorb can be used in ways other than music too. Because it's the way of thinking, and body and mind control that can extend to things outside of music, as well as within music. It's interesting what the learning and development and becoming exposed to new things can do. But even then, even if they didn't learn various things, then that is ok too, because people should just be allowed to enjoy their life etc.

Pallas

SouthPark What they have learned isn't wasted at all.

1000% in support of less pressure and more celebration. I think sometimes the best intentions will squash someone's spirit, so the best thing is to invite participation without expectations or demands. That's what I believe, anyway. Just make space instead of creating fear, you know?

Sophia

High-five my friends! That's the beauty of a place like this. There is room for all - people who want to become nothing short of the best. I wish you all the luck in the world to get there. I will cheer you on all the way! And the casual players who like to spend a few minutes each week to brush up on their Chopsticks. I like Chopsticks, so go for it.

It's all good really - and that is why I am enjoying this new forum so much. I hope this "Insert Method/ Style/ Technique/ Grading/ Practice/ Schedule/ Returner Adult/ Child Prodigy X is better than Fill-in-the-Blanks Y because I said so" never makes in into this place 😃 It's what makes us unique for now... yay!

WieWaldi

JohnCW If someone can't even sight read, does that automatically mean they are doomed to always be classified a 'beginner'. I'd sure like to be able to play as well as a certain 'beginner'.

Good point. Michael Jackson was a lifetime beginner musician, then. I mean, he could not even read notes, which makes him a bloody beginner. 🤪

JohnCW

WieWaldi Michael Jackson was a lifetime beginner musician, then. I mean, he could not even read notes, which makes him a bloody beginner

The particular person I have in mind is my current favorite player, Katherine Cordova. As far as YouTube popular music players go, I think she is unsurpassed. Self taught, and can't sight read (not sure who does where commercial for sale scores). By the criteria the initial video presented, she is probably a 'beginner'. But the reality is if anyone looks at the extensive body of her work, her skill at presenting the 'emotion' of the piece (this is where I believe she excels), and her playing itself, she is an advanced player by any standard.

TC3

ranjit Yes, their argument was that it was wasteful for beginners to learn that theory and that it served no practical purpose. I think it helped me when I was a beginner, because I finally understood what chords meant, how they could be substituted for one another, etc.

I've come across this too at some other forums (piano and bass). To be clear, I think it's just fine if someone doesn't want to learn theory, but sometimes they go a bit far in claiming that it has no value. (How would they know? ... )

WieWaldi

JohnCW How do you know that she can't sight read? And if this is true, maybe she can read sheet music very well, but not sight read to a certain standard?

WieWaldi

thepianoplayer416 ...I met Suzuki & Yamaha people...

Is it just me who is thinking about bikers?🏍️🏍️🏍️

JohnCW

WieWaldi How do you know that she can't sight read? And if this is true, maybe she can read sheet music very well, but not sight read to a certain standard?

Why should I disbelieve what she says?

Pallas

I can see lots of good points here. Also, I think there are people with different goals here, and I like that. For peaceful, mutually respectful good times, I think it's important for it to be ok that one person says "expert" means x, y, z, and another person says it can also be a, b, c. Usually, they are talking about completely different approaches and goals, and I see nothing wrong with that, provided there's respect for the differences.

I was married to a guy who could play the electric guitar in a band really, really well. He liked all the high priests of virtuoso electric guitar. He learned everything by ear, or with tablature. He couldn't read music. But he didn't have a huge chip on his shoulder about it either. He had great respect for academic musicians, and even wished from time to time that he were inclined to learn how to read music. But he chose not to, and that's ok. He did not claim to be either better than or worse than the people who could read music, because that's neither here nor there. One of his guitar heroes had a PhD in astrophysics (Brian May) but could only read music slowly. Another hero couldn't read music at all (Eddie Van Halen). Eric Clapton couldn't read music. But Steve Vai, who learned from Joe Satriani, went to Berklee and from what I could dig up, could read every single part on a symphony score. I spend an awful lot of time online looking at videos of musicians doing their thing, and I can't say there's a pattern of this guy does/doesn't read and therefore is/isn't more virtuosic or more emotionally connected to the music. For each musician, there are just trade-offs. Pretending there aren't trade-offs is magical thinking.

Describing what those trade-offs are seems to be an art form in itself, and a neverending source of conversation, which I think is good news. We'll never run out of stuff to talk about. If we can talk with mutual respect (like what's happening here so far), without the big chips on our shoulders, we'll probably learn a ton from each other and actually make friends with one another, instead of perpetuating a culture of competition, put downs, and fear. I came here to get away from that.

Imagine the difference:

"If you want to be a 'real' pianist, you have to do x, y, z, or you'll fail, you moron."
or
"Here's how I got where I am, and so-and-so whom I admire very much, does this, that, and the other thing, so I'm going to try those things and see what happens. What do you think of that?"

The first conversation makes me want to quit the internet for good. The second makes me keep clicking refresh to find out what happens next.

JohnCW

Pallas I was married to a guy who could play the electric guitar in a band really, really well.

A guitarists I knew personally played in a well respected local band. If we were at a jam session, he'd just roll in, borrow someones guitar, and play the most rock solid timing and chord changes (using fairly basic chords) and leave everyone with their mouths open. He was a great guitarist being able to play the basics so well. He didn't need five thousand jazz chords to shine.

WieWaldi

JohnCW Ok, so this is what she said, probably in a Q&A video? (I checked out her channel and watched a Q&A video, but this topic wasn't addressed in that.)
In this case, I assume she can read and write sheet music well, but she claims she can't sight-read because she has higher standards for what sight-reading means.

JohnCW

WieWaldi (I checked out her channel and watched a Q&A video, but this topic wasn't addressed in that.)

I suggest you listen to the video again where at the 1:54 mark she says "I don't know how to read sheet music"? That's petty clear to me.

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hebele

JohnCW I've watched some of her arrangements. They're great. It's amazing that one can reach that level of proficiency by ear. I guess this is common in some genres. To me, it feels like hard mode. Because I find reading the notation is the easiest part. Executing it is hard! And transcribing by ear is impossible 🙂

That QA is also interesting. At the end she recommended learning music theory and writing sheet music. Her husband also made her a little theory book and software to help 🙂 They're cute.

SouthPark

One nice thing about Katherine's situation is - if she truly doesn't know how to read sheet music at all right now - not even a tiny bit, then there's definitely nothing to stop her from learning at any time. Her level of intellect would see her reading sheet music very well relatively quickly.

I reckon she probably does know a little bit -- as in A, B, C etc. The very basics at least. On the other hand, if she says she doesn't know how to read sheet music, then we can definitely assume zero experience. Whatever is the case - it's clear that she has the potential to become a good music reader after a relatively short time, even with assumed zero sheet reading experience.

She gave a nice note in the vid, about feeling -- feeling the music. Get as best as we can what we feel into the music, to the best of what abilities we have at this/the time. And I can understand what she says about doing something slightly different, but also happy with, that is different from what others play. Totally understanding of it. I'm sort of like that too. My goal/aim isn't to modify/alter existing music to have somebody say 'it is different and nice'. I just focus on making it different for me (myself) to say it's different and nice. It looks like Katherine is probably like that too. She says it. Being happy with what is generated - first and foremost.

Sophia

SouthPark there's definitely nothing to stop her from learning at any time

I don't know the lady in question so my remarks are generic, but I agree with this wholeheartedly. There is literally no argument to be made against it. I mean I have never in my life met a person who said they regretted learning to read or write (whether ABC or sheet music). It's never too late... and it wouldn't take away from getting world class skills or conveying the emotion of the pieces either. If anything, it would enhance it even further.

thepianoplayer416

SouthPark There are 2 ways to reproduce a piece of music: by ear or by the score. People who had music training with a teacher would be able to read... especially when the music is Classical.

Historically standard music notations was invented in Italy a few hundred years ago. Before that nobody came up with an accurate way to record music on paper so a long of pieces were passed from person to person by ear. Some people assumed that standard notations has always been the preferred way to learn music. Many Pop musicians don't read or write in standard notations.

People who had instructions from a teacher would know how to read. The rest depends. Some are keen on learning notations but not all. Even some who play Classical pieces may be using synthesia (falling rectangles) or other ways to learn pieces.

SouthPark

thepianoplayer416 There are 2 ways to reproduce a piece of music: by ear or by the score. People who had music training with a teacher would be able to read... especially when the music is Classical.

True. Reproducing music - or at least the 'essence' of the music can certainly be done by listening. Some people can really do it very well - as in generate the gist of it. For accurate note-by-note -- yes indeed, the written score at least allows the original (source) sequence to be properly preserved. These days - where recordings are available (although in many cases, there are no original source recordings as they didn't have the tech back in the oldest days), the combination of score plus recordings has its benefits, because that information conveys even how somebody (eg. the author) played it - in terms of timing, nuances, rubato etc. Timbre and other features might not be exactly the same though of course - as each instrument and environment etc is different.

These days - another combination - is eg. synthesia plus audio recording, which in many selected cases can be effective, especially when combined with audio recording of how the music should sound, and possibly when the students are then also taught intervals, finger sequences (or how to work out workable ones on their own in pieces and/or scales and/or arpegg scales etc), relative pitch training, chord work, keys (ie. key signature) and other elements (eg. the circle of fifth sequences - which actually has short-cut application methods for very practical usage, and can become ingrained into people - the more they just use it, and 2-5-1 etc techniques etc) --- that's if students want to get into these other areas, which can open the door to areas of some musical freedom.

Of course, it's a broad area - but once enough knowledge is accumulated, then people will automatically sense some sort of own musical freedom, and also they can (if they want) learn more and develop more - such as checking out the various other sorts of scales out there, and various music genre, composition counterpoint work etc. There's enough content all together to keep people interested and fascinated in playing piano and making music to last 'forever'.

But back to music score. For some music - where a huge lot is going on, and if somebody wants to be able to view the 'notes' or patterns in a 'most efficient' way (provided that they have been taught to read the symbols relatively effectively and efficiently), then 'traditional' type of notation - music score sheet will really be the most efficient, especially for very 'busy' type music - with a heap going on in it -- lots of notes happening all the time etc.

But when it comes to debate/chats about eg. score versus synthesia etc, I just know that people that get into synthesia can always (or also) get into score reading if they want. What synthesia can do for many people is to get 'foot-in-door'. Get them into piano and music in one way. And from there, they can choose to learn to read music etc if they want.

As for Katherine, as we can see - not knowing how to read score sheets still allows people to generate amazing music of the sorts that they like. She expands/grows in a particular direction (or directions), and there is certainly nothing stopping her from expanding in other directions too if she wants to. But it looks like she has developed adequately and is still developing - and having fun with the piano and music, which is absolutely excellent.

SouthPark

That's a very substantial point in music, or essence of music. When there becomes an adequate amount of understanding in how music or notes etc can fit together, and some adequate creativity ... the amount of music or variations etc becomes seemingly endless. The possibilities. That ... plus learning about the various aspects of music is one way of keeping ourselves occupied and happy for 'eternity'.

Even without composition etc, the amount of music out there to be played from score/script and learned is pretty much limitless too. Music ... is a paradise.

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