Sgisela Professionals play at extremely high levels, probably at higher levels than ever. And very few people learn to play at all, whereas in prior eras, casual music making was much more common.
And this is sad. There are other countries where virtually everyone sings. By making music a niche professional thing, it loses its cultural relevance imo.
Sgisela It feels that in today’s world, there’s not very much space for amateur musicians. Professionals play at extremely high levels, probably at higher levels than ever. And very few people learn to play at all, whereas in prior eras, casual music making was much more common
Yes, I think this is pretty accurate, unfortunately.
I sometimes wonder if part of performance anxiety comes from the fact that, as you say, there’s not much space for causal music making, and because few people play, it feels like the expectations are super high. After all, most people don’t often listen to amateur play, so we may subconsciously expect them to be less forgiving.
Amateur pianists were a big market for music publishers for many, many years. That started to change when other means of home entertainment became available to households, namely radio and the phonograph. It used to be that having at least modest skills at playing and singing were considered necessary social graces. Nowadays (cynicism warning!) being deft at manipulating your smart phone is considered a social grace. In short, making your own music has been in decline for over a century. Which is sad, because no matter what you call yourself, making music with your own two hands (or vocal chords) is just sooo satisfying.
It's interesting - I just joined yesterday and the first two threads I've read: one is a video about whether one is a beginner or intermediate, and this one is called "not a beginner". I abandoned my thoughts on the other one and I'm thinking: what if we don't worry about what we are and just do the doing? I can't label myself anywhere. I do sometimes say "I'm all over the place." - which I am.
At some point I’m inclined to just say, “sure” to whatever they ask. “Are you pro?” “sure.” “Wow you play undisciplined.” “sure.” “Oh goodness you should record yourself more!” “Sure.” “Uhm that’s not how the Nocturne is supposed to sound. Your improvisation detracts from the spirit of Chopin’s work.” “sure.” 
HeartKeys At some point I’m inclined to just say, “sure” to whatever they ask. “Are you pro?” “sure.” “Wow you play undisciplined.” “sure.” “Oh goodness you should record yourself more!” “Sure.” “Uhm that’s not how the Nocturne is supposed to sound. Your improvisation detracts from the spirit of Chopin’s work.” “sure.”
This is funny. I relate to where you're coming from.
I know I have said on PW that if anyone asks and they rarely do ask about what standard I am at on the piano my reply is simply that 'I am Student of music' although I played for more than 25 years lol
My aim was to just relax and keep learning and developing at my own pace, and playing what I like ... no time limit, and just knowing that if we keep having fun and continuing to enjoy playing our pianos and accommodating/absorbing and understanding teachings in music (direct and indirect), then we can start conveying music in our own ways, and being totally comfortable with piano anywhere.
So the learning isn't just about playing scripts, where playing scripts is a significant skill in itself of course. The learning is also about applying theory and music experience and life experience ... to express yourself in your way ... as freely as you feel. So basically, it's sort of like singing in your mind while translating a version of that to the piano. But of course, the piano can't pitch bend like what our music in our mind is doing. And it can't alter the loudness or timbre profile of sustained notes. But it does have amazing timbre and multi-note and blending capabilities, and the soft loud piano-forte control. So we can certainly make pianos do some amazing and wonderful and beautiful and elegant etc singing ... in its way (and our way -- as it's a team effort - us and the piano ... as one).
So if we make it our life-long aim to keep learning, and keep developing and keep practising etc, then we usually find that we become formidable in our own ways, even if being 'formidable' or 'good' etc wasn't the aim/goal.
And my aim is to just keep playing piano for the absolute love of them, and absolute love of music.
ShiroKuro Most professionals I know do not judge the amateurs that they know. Instead they are happy to listen, happy to help if asked, happy that there are amateurs out there enjoying music. So do not be shy about saying you are an amateur - that is how you make connections and find other people that share amateur music making.
Stub Publishing music for amateurs is still a big business - just look at all the method books, graded repertoire books, self published music by the neo-classical crowd, and the Fabers and Alfreds. There are people making a living composing and publishing and recording for the "neo-classical" market.
I kind of wish Navindra had picked another name for this from than "Adult Beginners". At least over at the other forum which shall not be named, the "Adult Beginners Forum" name was a source of confusion and a definite misnomer. Most of the people hanging out there were no longer beginners. I suspect that will be the case here as well.
When I first started contributing to the ABF I might have been a beginner, but now, 15-16 years later - I am not.
Sam When I first started contributing to the ABF I might have been a beginner, but now, 15-16 years later - I am not.
Same here, I was a beginner when I first joined in 2016, but 8 years later now I don't consider myself a beginner. But ABF was the only forum at PW that I would visit on a regular basis because it wasn't really "Beginner". It talked about all sorts of things!
Maybe have a "Beginner" forum for people that are starting out new and trying to get started, regardless of age.
Sam Most professionals I know do not judge the amateurs that they know.
Sam, I agree. I think professional musicians are probably more sympathetic listeners actually. With my comment above, I wasn't thinking so much about professionals, but rather non-musicians. I think if people (in general) were used to hearing music made by non-professionals, then they also would be sympathetic listeners. But what I meant was, most people rarely listen to live music -- they listen mostly to recorded music (by professionals). Or they listen to YouTubers and Tik Tockers who are amateurs in theory but make music at a professional level.
So, perhaps without even realizing it, expectations are higher.... Probably not all people are like this, but if "casual playing" were common the way it used to be in the past, and people had more experience listening to music making that wasn't at a professional level, then I think there would be less pressure to be perfect.
Sam Publishing music for amateurs is still a big business - just look at all the method books, graded repertoire books, self published music by the neo-classical crowd, and the Fabers and Alfreds. There are people making a living composing and publishing and recording for the "neo-classical" market.
Yes indeed! You might remember the article a few years back about how solo pianists like David Nevue and Michelle McLaughlin were making huge amounts of money from Pandora radio. As it happens, these artists (along with people like Alexis Ffrench, Einaudi etc.) also sell their sheet music and I have the impression that it sells very well. Nevue was picked up by Hal Leonard and I think he has two score collections published by HL now. Which is really saying something!
Sam I kind of wish Navindra had picked another name for this from than "Adult Beginners". At least over at the other forum which shall not be named, the "Adult Beginners Forum" name was a source of confusion and a definite misnomer. Most of the people hanging out there were no longer beginners. I suspect that will be the case here as well.
When I first started contributing to the ABF I might have been a beginner, but now, 15-16 years later - I am not.
"Beginner" is such a difficult term. I still feel like a beginner. A year ago, I was working through Bach inventions trying to play them well, and really struggling with left hand dexterity. I'm still working on developing some aspects of basic musicality. I am still nowhere near professionals in terms of how I play. In those ways, I feel like a beginner.
But I am considerably more advanced, and can sometimes hold my own in front of university students. So it all depends. If you look at the level of playing, I might be able to pass a grade 8 or even diploma exam in a few months. But I'm still pretty green, and have only been at it for a relatively short while.
A forum like "Pianist Corner" will tend to attract professional pianists, piano professors and the like, active accompanists, performers who go to national/international competitions. Compared to them, I would fit in much better at the ABF.
That's why Beginners - Entry Level might be workable - and the text section that explains what that section is for - can include anything about what that area is for - eg. adult beginners of any sort, non-adult beginners of any sort, entry level learners, and experienced people offering help/assistance. Even non entry-level beginners are welcome.
SouthPark That's why Beginners - Entry Level might be workable - and the text section that explains what that section is for - can include anything about what that area is for
Perhaps, although I'm not sure how many people would qualify and how you would define "entry level" properly. Everyone learns differently, and the beginning level for everyone is different. The way you're taught also makes a huge difference in terms of what you feel is entry level. For some, learning an F# major scale might be "intermediate" because that's where it comes in their method book or graded syllabus. For others, that might just be what their teacher started them out with (all of the scales).
I used to get into arguments about this online, but then with my current teacher (although I wasn't a beginner, I hadn't properly learned scales) -- he did pretty much exactly that. He showed me the fingerings and asked me to learn all 36 major, minor and harmonic minor scales, parallel and contrary motion. Initially, I thought he was crazy, but then I could do most of them after a few months.
ranjit how you would define "entry level"
I think that will be like ... new to playing piano ... or relatively new. Newcomers. But the opening text can have a description of what the section is all about, or is mostly about. So it can accommodate the people that the section is generally formed for.
So basically, even if you are relatively experienced and built up substantial skills in various areas, then the section is flexible enough to accommodate people that wants to develop or learn entry level scales. But experienced piano players can optionally or alternatively get recommendations from other sections too if they want or need to.
The way I see it or visualise it ... is if a relatively experienced piano player that has acquired 'adequate' music reading and piano playing skills, including substantial music theory, hand independence etc, then it is absolutely ok to still participate in that section to get into one of those skills that was either missed out on, or had not got into before. The section will accommodate you.
Good ideas here on the title but re reading Newcomers might be simply newcomers to the forum and not the piano. I always spent time on the old forum page although not new to piano, this was because if anyone needs/askes assistance then it is good to know more experienced people are also reading and replying. Also new ideas emanating from some replies are also or could be very useful to all players. Experience or standard of playing does not always mean we know it all. We all get inspired by new stuff coming through too.
