Bach/Kempff Siciliano from the Flute Sonata No. 2, BWV1031

Jane

Such a charming piece. Hard to ruin. Very hard to play well. I have a challenge trying to sing the melody with fingers 4 and 5 while right hand fingers 1 and 2 are plucking a soft staccato accompaniment. I use very little pedal through the piece to try to keep the staccato crisp. (Kempff's pedal markings are pretty consistent, but I deviate from them a bit.)

My desert island recording of this is Dinu Lipatti's.

Recorded on my N3 Yamaha keyboard through VI Labs Modern D virtual Steinway.

pianoloverus

Jane Such a charming piece. Hard to ruin. Very hard to play well. I have a challenge trying to sing the melody with fingers 4 and 5 while right hand fingers 1 and 2 are plucking a soft staccato accompaniment. I use very little pedal through the piece to try to keep the staccato crisp. (Kempff's pedal markings are pretty consistent, but I deviate from them a bit.)

Even though I agree that you seem to be playing both the notes marked staccato and pedaling the way it's marked in the score, I don't think it's usually played that way in practice in terms of the soft staccato accompaniment you mention. I checked the performances by Yunchan Lim and and Evgeny Kissin, and it seems like they either pedal through those notes or play them with a portamento touch very close to legato. Even in the performance by Kempff, those notes that he's marked staccato and without pedal don't sound that way to me. I'm talking about what Kempff does It measures four and six and in many similarly marked passages. To me it sounds like Kempff is just pedaling there even though he marked the pedal could be released in those places? Does it sound that way to you?

twocats

That was so lovely! I am going to have to look for this piece on IMSLP. I can certainly see that the melody plus accompaniment would be a challenge, wondering if it's something that is helped by having bigger hands (which I don't).

Jane

Thank you!

There are several transcriptions on imslp, but I wasn't able to find the Kempff version. I think it may still be under copyright (not that there aren't a number of things on imslp that probably shouldn't be...)

So I purchased the music from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Pieces-Transcribed-Piano-Kempff/dp/0793557267

twocats

Jane I haven't tried the download but I bookmarked this to look at it later:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36062.0

Jane

twocats I looked at your link.
Yes, that's a copy of the score I used.

HeartKeys

Excellent!

Jane

pianoloverus I don't think it's usually played that way in practice in terms of the soft staccato accompaniment you mention.

Thanks for the comments.
There are many fish in the ocean.
Pedaling staccato notes to get a bell-like sound I find nice in some music. Not how I choose to play this piece.

Kissin's recording seems affected to me.
I haven't listened to Yunchan's.
Kempff's is nice enough, although doesn't hold a candle to Lipatti's. And Kempff plays it substantially slower than the 104 tempo he has marked on the score.

Of modern recordings, I like Berrut's

Of all-time, as mentioned in my original post, Lipatti's.
Although if anybody listens to his recording, please ignore my poor attempt. 🙉

Ornstein

The entrance and reentrances of the melody are beautifully done. You made it look very easy to bring out and hold the melody notes in a singing way while playing the lower fingers accompaniment soft staccato. The charming nature of the piece very much belies the difficulty. Also the ascending thirds at around 0:49 and 0:53 are elegant, I probably mentioned it in a Chopin recording but your double notes are very musical.

You have to step back and wonder how minds like Lipatti or such musicians came upon this kind of idea. Did they experiment around and discover this kind of articulation sounds good? Did they look at the score and already knew it would sound good played this way? or maybe they hear a peer play it and imagine it played different, then go home and try it on the spot.

pianoloverus

Ornstein The entrance and reentrances of the melody are beautifully done. You made it look very easy to bring out and hold the melody notes in a singing way while playing the lower fingers accompaniment soft staccato. The charming nature of the piece very much belies the difficulty. Also the ascending thirds at around 0:49 and 0:53 are elegant, I probably mentioned it in a Chopin recording but your double notes are very musical.

You have to step back and wonder how minds like Lipatti or such musicians came upon this kind of idea. Did they experiment around and discover this kind of articulation sounds good? Did they look at the score and already knew it would sound good played this way? or maybe they hear a peer play it and imagine it played different, then go home and try it on the spot.

As far as I can tell neither Berrut or Lipatti play the staccato and pedal indications marked in the score for measures 4 and 6 and all the similar spots. They seem to either use pedal where the score indicates to lift the pedal and/or play the notes marked staccato with a very portamento touch so they almost sound legato.

Jane

Ornstein your double notes are very musical.

LOL. Having just listened to your Kapustin Etude, Ornstein, I must say you're a man who knows his double notes 😉

Peyton

Jane, very lovely, lovely playing. What you are doing with your right hand is quite amazing.

Jane

Peyton What you are doing with your right hand is quite amazing

Apparently it's not to everybody's taste, Peyton. But it's how I seem inclined to play the piece at the moment.

But I could change my mind tomorrow.

Jane

pianoloverus As far as I can tell neither Berrut or Lipatti play the staccato and pedal indications marked in the score for measures 4 and 6 and all the similar spots. They seem to either use pedal where the score indicates to lift the pedal and/or play the notes marked staccato with a very portamento touch so they almost sound legato.

To be honest, I haven't listened to anyone else's recording in a while. I'm sure you're right and I'm just off doing my own eccentric thing.
I've actually played this piece twice for another human listener - both times more than a year ago. I live in my own little world of playing into my headphones, so I have a rather mellow and forgiving audience of one 🙄

After reading your comments, I did out of curiosity run the audio through a reverb to get a sense of what this playing might sound like in a reverberant hall. It's a bit less dry, but certainly nobody would consider it portato.
If anyone is curious, this is a very wet version: https://beachbunnysoftware.com/music/SicilianoVsl60.mp3

Ornstein

Jane The ones like in the Bach-Kempff are more interesting than the alternating double notes, in Kapustin's case 1-5 with 4-2 outer and inner fingers. I think lately I fell into thinking legato = more musical from spending so much time working out how to legato-ize various passages. It was becoming a default thought.

I'm glad I heard/watched your recording because the sort of bounce or portamento touch in that line sounds amazing (then again after the thirds, with the sixths going descending), giving it a light lilting quality. And it sounds so complementary and blends well with the parts with the lower RH soft staccato accompaniment, for the overall structure.

twocats

Jane Apparently it's not to everybody's taste, Peyton. But it's how I seem inclined to play the piece at the moment.

I listened to it again and I like the way you play it! I'd probably put a touch of a pedal on the beginnings of each phrase (not full pedal) but I quite enjoy your interpretation!

Jane

Ornstein I'm glad I heard/watched your recording because the sort of bounce or portamento touch in that line sounds amazing (then again after the thirds, with the sixths going descending), giving it a light lilting quality. And it sounds so complementary and blends well with the parts with the lower RH soft staccato accompaniment, for the overall structure.

Some of the pedal markings in Kempff's score may be a bit inexact and some pedal endings seem missing.

One thing I do try to observe in the thirds/sixths passage you mention is the left hand eight-note rests in the first three bars of these measures.

And I think I'm doing a touch of pedal at the beginnings of these phrases, @twocats, , but maybe not enough for it to be clearly audible.

But my last piano lessons were in 1963 and I don't have any how to do things "right".

(Need to change my signature line to Rebel Without A Cause!)

twocats

Jane And I think I'm doing a touch of pedal at the beginnings of these phrases, @twocats, , but maybe not enough for it to be clearly audible.

Oh I think I didn't mean phrases, I meant the lowest notes of the left hand, maybe just for those lower notes and the next one after it. It helps them have a little more of a basso continuo feeling. I can't tell how I'd actually play it until I try it myself though 🙂

pianoloverus

I'm not sure but I think at this point posters are talking about many different parts of this piece so the discussion is not clear, at least to me. My comments apply only measures 4 and 6 and the many similar places in the piece. As far as I can tell all of the five pianists l mentioned(Kissin, Lim, Kempff, Lipatti, Berrut) don't follow the staccato markings or pedal indications in those measures and no one so far has disagreed with me about this. The notes marked staccato and without pedal sound close to legato or at least portamento and they may also be using pedal where score shows that pedal released.

This is not to say at all that following the staccato and pedal markings in the score is some kind of mistake. All I'm saying is that I think when five world class pianists choose to interpret score markings a particular way, this bears consideration.

It's also been pointed out that's some of the pedal markings in the score seem clearly wrong. So it's possible that the pedal markings measures 4 and 6 are wrong.

twocats

pianoloverus I want to be clear that my comments were just about my (possible) personal preference, not at all a suggestion or comment on Jane's playing.

I enjoyed her interpretation very much and I think this piece can be played a number of different ways and be lovely to listen to.