"Holiday" music vs. "Christmas" music

rsl12

I'm starting this discussion in a new thread, so as not to derail the discussion at Pianotell Recitals' Most Popular Genres (also: PIYW Genre schedule)

Simonb I have one quibble. So Holiday themed is what? We're all going on a Summer Holiday - Cliff Richard - springs to mind.
It seems a bit trivial to me; like having a washing up category. And at a stretch almost anything can be made to fit. I'm having a holiday in the Autumn, so I'm doing Autumn Leaves 🤣

I hate that this a politically-charged topic. In a pleasant alternate universe, a debate on the topic is no more heated than Solanum lycopersicum, which is called either a toh-MAH-toh or a toh-MAY-toh. But I have confidence that Simon, myself, and the rest of pianotell can discuss it casually and without hurt feelings.

First of all, I have no big qualms with either term: "Holiday" music and "Christmas" music are both well understood to be referring to the same set of music, and though both terms are a little inaccurate or vague in their own ways, neither term causes confusion, as their meanings are clear to all English speakers.

I prefer "Holiday" because the most of that music doesn't make me think of Jesus Christ's birth. Rather, I associate it with the time of the year when stores try to get you to spend more by playing that music. On the brighter side, I also associate it with ugly sweater parties, fairy lights, reindeer, fake snow, and watching my daughter unwrap presents under a tree. And yes, I also associate it with baby Jesus and menorahs and the new year, but only a little bit.

The term "holiday music" could technically be about any holidays, but if we're being technical, much of what is called "Christmas Music" isn't about Christmas (not only Hannukah and New Year's songs, but also songs like "Frosty the Snow Man" or "Let it Snow" or "Sleigh Ride").

So for those reasons, I prefer the term Holiday over Christmas. But I'm never offended if I hear someone calling it "Christmas Music".

Simonb

Hi rsl12

Sorry, if I've caused an unnecessary distraction.

It's certainly not politically-charged for me, it's just a music category!

My only reason for mentioning it was that I thought there were more worthy categories you could have picked. What those might be I don't know. Baroque maybe?

I actually think leaving it as Holiday music is preferable to Christmas music. That at least leaves it open to a wide range of interpretations.

I'll be happy with whatever you decide.

Cheers

keystring

Simonb Which holiday was exactly my point in the original thread. Any holiday type opens it up to all sorts of interpretations, which on reflection I think is a good idea.

In my field as a translator I'm sensitive to the fine lines of communication and potential misunderstanding. We have "localization" where a thing may get this or that nuance in a country, culture, or group. In my work I weigh words carefully both for what I'm reading, and how I translate it. I believe this is going on here.

As I understand it, in the United States there has been a problem with the word "Christmas' which gradually got replaced by Xmas and 'holidays". We had that to some degree here in Canada but maybe not that much. The word "holiday" immediately relates to this "Christmas vs. holidays" debate for many (North?) Americans, I think. You'll notice that RS1 wrote:

rsl12 I hate that this a politically-charged topic.

That means the thinking immediately went to the existing problem around a particular issue.

I tried to get past that mindset, and outside of any single country, by referring to the Indian festival of Holi, which is in March. Nobody in India would be thinking about "do we say Christmas or holiday in December" because it's a different country and culture. The same for other countries.

We do come from any different countries. The Internet is not an American place that people from other countries also visit. So the association of "holiday" as a political issue due to what has happened in recent years around the word "Christmas" will not spring to mind, and some people may even be totally aware of it.

That, I think, is the miscommunication.

@rsl12 , when I see the word "holiday" I do not think of something in lieu of Christmas, or 'political correctness' and such. I simply wonder "which holiday"? I understand that the Christmas/holiday controversy is a sensitive issue, but many of us wouldn't even be thinking of that.

rsl12

Simonb My only reason for mentioning it was that I thought there were more worthy categories you could have picked. What those might be I don't know. Baroque maybe?

Ah, I totally misunderstood what you were suggesting! Anyways, the schedule is not set in stone, and if someone ever makes a suggestion to the suggestion box that doesn't fit into any of the categories, we can talk about it then.

(ps. Baroque would be under Classical. If people always vote for Romantic Classical, I can subdivide the category further.)

TC3

"Christmas Music" is literally a genre, so if that's what's meant for recital purposes, then that's what we should call it. EDIT: FWIW, I'm not Christian, but I'm not remotely bothered by the idea of a Christmas Music recital.

If it's meant to be broader but still around that time of the year -- including Auld Lang Syne and such -- then I think we can call it something like "Upcoming Holiday Season Music" (assuming we're going it around December / January).

If we really mean any and every holiday for whomever wherever, then "Holiday Music" is accurate. I'll dust off the music from the 30 ROCK Leap Year episode, and Adam Sandler's Thanksgiving song!

Finally, I would like a Canadian to explain Boxing Day to me ... 😃

rsl12

TC3 "Christmas Music" is literally a genre, so if that's what's meant for recital purposes, then that's what we should call it. EDIT: FWIW, I'm not Christian, but I'm not remotely bothered by the idea of a Christmas Music recital.

One other consideration is that the upcoming PIYW, to be announced October 15 and published December 15, coincides with the Pianotell "Holiday Themed Recital". So the idea is that those who want to can work on the same piece in preparation for it. Since it's a "holiday themed recital", I thought it makes sense to call the genre "holiday".

(Whether PIYW submissions should be placed in the "Holiday Themed Recital" thread or in a separate PIYW thread is a question that hasn't been settled yet.)

Simonb

Hi rsl12

No problem, it's very easy to do that when communicating via text.

Cheers

WieWaldi

From an European standpoint, holiday recital is very confusing. What holiday is meant? There are a lot of (public) holidays. Ask the Chinese - their holiday is the 2_nd half of February. I got used to this term now, no problem whatsoever. Still, I think Christmas recital is more precise. And if you want to get rid of the word "Christ", call it X-mas. Making it as commercial as possible.

thepianoplayer416

Christmas is a term used for Christians to commemorate the birth of Jesus with a date set by the Romans in the middle of December after the winter solstice. The actual date of Jesus' birth is probably in another month but the December date stayed.

If you're not sure somebody is a Christian, some would get offended if you wish them a "Merry Christmas". Others who are Christians would insist you not wish them "Happy Holidays" which sounds too generic. Holidays in December is a more general term for everybody including non-Christians.

Christmas music of any kind include anything you'd sing in church with a religious theme. A piece that is usually sung in church a week before Christmas (Advent) is "O Come Divine Massiah". Some songs have winter as the theme like "Winter Wonderland" * "Let it Snow", some has family and togetherness as the theme like "I'll be Home for Christmas", "It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year", "Deck the Halls". The Christmas tree was a later tradition with the song "O Christmas Tree". To ring in the New Year we have "We Wish You a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year" & "Auld Lang Syne". And there are Pop songs with Christmas as the theme like John Lennon "So This is Christmas", Paul McCartney "Wonderful Christmas Time", Bobby Helms "Jingle Bell Rock", Abba "Happy New Year', etc.

In the old days when the holidays everybody would celebrate in December is referred to as Christmas in Western countries when Christianity was the dominant religion. Today Western societies have become more diverse due to immigration. Not everybody would celebrate Christmas in December. The Jews would celebrate Hannukah and Hindus would celebrate Diwali. Christmas is not celebrated in China where Lunar New Year that varies every year from Jan - Mar is more important.

keystring

Actually, if someone refers to "holiday music" my first question would be which holiday. If it was posted in March, I'd think maybe Easter. If in January, maybe someone is thinking of Holi which sounds like a joyous and literally colourful festivity. We are in fact an international community living in many countries, so many holidays could come to mind.

Simonb

Hi keystring

Which holiday was exactly my point in the original thread. Any holiday type opens it up to all sorts of interpretations, which on reflection I think is a good idea. A wider choice of possible material is a good thing for a Piano Recital.

I wish I hadn't said anything now.

Cheers

Simonb

Hi keystring

Honestly, I have no concept of how holidays can be politically-charged, but I accept that for others and other countries it may be different.

My original question was, as I've said before, simply that I thought there were better categories (what I'm not sure!). And that's it, there was no other intended meaning in my post than that.

Happy to go along with whatever is decided.

Cheers

keystring

Simonb Honestly, I have no concept of how holidays can be politically-charged, but I accept that for others and other countries it may be different.

I just spent several paragraphs explaining in what way, in some countries, this can be politically charged. As I understand it, it can be a big thing in the US and goes along with words like "woke". This helps understand strong reactions, when they come. I'm not in that world either.

rsl12

Simonb Honestly, I have no concept of how holidays can be politically-charged, but I accept that for others and other countries it may be different.

Oh, it was a bad assumption on my part to think this USA issue extended beyond the borders! Sorry for assuming too much. Also, thank you to @keystring for helping clear it up.

By the way, if we don't do a Christmas Holiday themed PIYW for December, I think PIYW should skip December entirely. I suspect that the "Holiday Themed Recital" run by @rogerch will be an annual occurrence, and I don't want our two events to compete for participation.

Simonb

Hi keystring

Yes, sorry, I did read your reply. I just wanted to make it clear that my original response had nothing to do with any of that, and it only related to improving (or not) the music recital.

Cheers

keystring

Simonb Yes, sorry, I did read your reply. I just wanted to make it clear that my original response had nothing to do with any of that, and it only related to improving (or not) the music recital.

This is an extremely important point. Sometimes one has to get past an emotional issue for the actual message to be heard. I think it now has. Improving the music recital is a superb goal.

Simonb

Hi rsl12

There's certainly no apology required. We're all here for the music, and the occasional non-musical / cultural misunderstanding is probably inevitable.

Cheers

keystring

rsl12 Oh, it was a bad assumption on my part to think this USA issue extended beyond the borders! Sorry for assuming too much. Also, thank you to @keystring for helping clear it up.

So I guess I nailed what the issue was. 😉 I think some of that particular issue does extend over into Canada. And of course a lot of the holiday cards we see for sale are created and printed in the US. I'm curious now how it is in European countries. Does "Froehliche Weihnachten" get replaced - or 'joyeux Noel"?

rsl12 By the way, if we don't do a Christmas Holiday themed PIYW for December, I think PIYW should skip December entirely.

I understand that the Jewish Hannukah happens in the same period, and since we're into the winter solstice period, there are probably other holidays marking that period. There is so much music around the Christmas theme that I'd see it as worth it. Maybe people could also extend into related themes including holidays of their culture falling around that time?

rogerch

rsl12 Last year’s December Holiday recital was very informal. I think it would be fine for some of us to learn different versions of the same piece and others of us to contribute whatever we want to the recital. From your perspective would that dilute PIYW too much?

TC3

It's also a bit of an issue in the UK, as I understand it.

rsl12

rogerch That's exactly how I was thinking it would work! And the more I think about it, the more I feel that it would be better to have all the submissions (PIYW and non-PIYW) together in your informal holiday recital thread. If it's okay with you.