Enough repetitions ~= 1000 for technically difficult passages?

Simonb

Hi "pianoloverus"#p33727

That of course is the important point, and I can't be precise.
Obviously not all of it, as although I wasn't judged (unlike the face to face exams) on scales, arpeggios etc, I did (and do) spend time practising them - in all keys. As well as sections of Hanon that I find useful, and simply playing other music. When you've been working on 4 pieces for over 18 months you do start to get bored with them.

I wouldn't be surprised if it took up 50% of my time, but since I don't keep a log of when, how long and what I practise, I'm afraid all of this is guess work.

Cheers

BartK

iternabe Maybe this could also explain why it is so hard to get a newly learned piece to be "live performance" ready? Because it is so hard to reach the 1000 times for the few most tricky spots in a short time span. However, if as I learn new pieces, tricky spots in previously learned pieces recur and get practiced along the way, then that should make some of my previously learned piece more secure and performance ready. Right?

I think it's not just a matter of repetitions but also the number of days/weeks/months spent practicing something. We know that sleep consolidates both motor skills and memory so the number of nights sleep you had over a particular passage has a large influence. It's probably impossible to come up with an exact formula but I would say that the raw number of repetitions has about the same amount of influence as the number of days that you practiced something. In other words, even if you crammed 1000 reps in two weeks it would be much less secure as doing it over three months. Even break days seem to have some benefit.

Player1

My observations are that, as a beginner, I'll spend a lot of time working on individual passages of a piece. When I get them all figured out I'll stitch them together into a whole. Once I have that, I'll practice until the whole is cohesive.

How may repetitions does this take? Several hundred at the least. Then, when looking for that "best of" recording, I'll do several hundred more repetitions. If I were trying for a performance level mastery, I'd most likely do several hundred more repetitions.

All of this takes weeks. And, surprisingly now that I think about it, it's likely the same for top level performers. Not because they're slow learners, but because to them learning new music is just as challenging as the "easy" stuff beginners have to learn. Their music is more complex but that doesn't mean it's "easy" just because they're top level players and have mad skills.

So yeah, I believe the 1000 repetitions is probably close to the actual reality of what it takes no matter who you are.

Player1

Simonb So in my example it probably took me around 500 days to learn and record 4 Grade 8 pieces to a standard that got me a merit in the exam.

Please tell us that you submitted one of these for this recital.

Simonb

Hi Player1

I'm afraid not. My understanding is that once a video is submitted to the ABRSM for assessment, you are not allowed to share it publicly or via any social media sites.

Cheers

BartK

pianoloverus Since the main technical issue in scales is passing the thumb under and fingers over

I disagree with that assessment. Passing the thumb is one aspect, which may be important for beginners and intermediates, but in higher tempos the main difficulty is maintaining perfect rhythmic and dynamic evenness and releasing fingers at the exact right moment to maintain a crisp and clear articulation. That is the principal difficulty that an advanced pianist would be working on when practicing scales.

Though I agree that this is part of general technique and practicing scales and arpeggios will benefit pianists of any level.

pianoloverus

BartK We can disagree on the primary difficulty playing scales, but my main point was that scales or scale fragments are not simple and also so ubiquitous that they cannot be considered similar to learning some short passage. They are more like learning octaves, arpeggios, legato, etc. ... a major part of piano technique.

Player1

Simonb 'm afraid not. My understanding is that once a video is submitted to the ABRSM for assessment, you are not allowed to share it publicly or via any social media sites.

As far as I can see, that's not a bar for you not being able to do another recording of the same piece.

Nightowl

Playing piano is hard and there don't seem to be any short cuts to playing a piece well. Sometimes it gets boring practising the same piece/measures over and over again, but gradually things improve.

1,000 seems like a massive number of repeats, but thinking about the piece I'm currently working on I've probably played it 10 or 20 times a day for nearly 4 weeks now - so maybe I've played it 500 times already, but I'm still not quite done with it yet. I'm probably reaching the limit of my boredom threshold now, so perhaps I'll move on from this piece soon, but I identify with many of the things that @iternabe, @Player1 and @Sophia said above - it definitely takes me longer to polish pieces these days.

iternabe

Nightowl Playing piano is hard and there don't seem to be any short cuts to playing a piece well.

Although there is no shortcut, my recent experience is there are time to be saved by being guided onto the most efficient path. That said, I do feel my pace of learning is what it is, and it would be unrealistic to expect it can be sped up just by working harder. So I just keep working at it a little a day, and as @BartK said, let sleep and rest does their thing, too.

Nightowl I'm probably reaching the limit of my boredom threshold now

I also find I need small wins from time to time to keep me going. So in addition to the long pieces that I will laboring on for months, I still sprinkle in some short pieces from my method book.

pianoloverus

Nightowl 1,000 seems like a massive number of repeats, but thinking about the piece I'm currently working on I've probably played it 10 or 20 times a day for nearly 4 weeks now - so maybe I've played it 500 times already, but I'm still not quite done with it yet.

500 is a lot but only half of 1000. Are you playing it from beginning to end or are you mostly practicing the more difficult sections? What is the piece?

Nightowl

Yes, I use similar tactics, playing simpler pieces between the more challenging ones. I'm not sure whether my practice is super efficient or not, but I'm making steady progress and it's only a hobby so I just plod along. Practice is more enjoyable now that I've finished the Alfred books, but I still revisit them sometimes to reinforce my basic skills.

Nightowl

pianoloverus Yes, 500 times is a lot and the piece is not that long (24 measures), but it has quite a bit of movement up and down the treble staff and I find it challenging to play those notes fluidly. I alternate my practice between playing the whole piece and working on certain measures. I will not name the piece here as I'm not seeking detailed feedback (although that's something I could do on another thread at some point), I just gave that as an example of how easy it is to clock up 500(ish) plays without really noticing you've done it.

thepianoplayer416 Indeed, but sometimes I only play it a few times a day, hence my guess of circa 500 plays in one month. Maybe the total is nearer 350-400 plays, but anyway I was just agreeing with others that as beginners progress from very basic method book pieces to playing slightly more demanding pieces (maybe grade 3ish) it's probably common to find that the pieces take more time to master (or even muddle through).

As a side note, things would be so much easier if the notes were positioned in identical positions on both clefs (but that subject has been covered before on other threads and there don't seem to be any viable options to revamp the system).

thepianoplayer416

Whatever you’re playing, 20 repeats a day in 5 days would add up to 100, 50 days (under 2 months) would give 1000 repeats.

The more you practice, the better you get and you would need fewer repetitions. A section of a piece the actually requires 1000 repetitions to learn is probably too difficult.

keystring

BartK She is talking about passages that are challenging even for pros like those found in concert etudes.

Yes, and then she gives simplistic advice. She leaves out a whole bunch of things which she substitutes with numbers. Following that as given could be a backward step for students.

MRC

I may have needed 10 repetitions for some passages, 100 for others, and maybe even 1000 for certain ones: I never counted. But concentrating on how many repetitions we might need is not really useful. What is useful, is reflecting on how we use each repetition. Here's an article by Graham Fitch on this subject: How to Manage Repetition in Practice. It's well worth reading the whole article, but I would particularly stress the importance of what Graham calls the Feedback Loop. He introduces it thus:

Before we repeat something, we need to pause a while and think what it is we aim to achieve in the repetition. Hear it vividly in our imagination, and mentally rehearse the passage before we put our hands back on the keyboard (this part of the process is extremely difficult to commit to, and takes a lot of concentration).

Think ten times and play once (Franz Liszt)

The feedback loop helps us to get better at focussing before we play or practise anything. We have a tangible reason to repeat something, and we hold that thought in our consciousness before we play and as we play. Afterwards we learn to reflect on what we did, and to ask ourselves if our result matched our intentions.

I don't know if Liszt actually said "think ten times and play once", but it's fine advice anyway!

Simonb

Hi Player1

No it's not, I could record new versions of the pieces.
However the recordings wouldn't be as good, since my exam recording was made on my Teacher's Yamaha Grand Piano.

If I get round to recording any of them again I'll certainly share the recordings.

Cheers

keystring

iternabe I am wondering if this is true. For context, I am not thinking just being able to play that passage well in xx% of time, but to master it with such security and comfort that it's never going to be any problem.

I didn't have time to elaborate besides saying it's simplistic. Of the three R's she only gives two of them: effective (doesn't define that), and 'enough'. While talking she keeps slowly playing a few bars of the Ocean etude with the RH, and I hope that is not meant as a demo.

I did that etude last year. I used a lot of the (practising) ideas set out by Woroniki. It involved technique needed, different aspects of that technique, and also my own technical strengths and (lots of) weaknesses there. W has a number of videos, each showing a different thing, some almost seeming contradictory but they are not. You might play these as block chords, focusing on elbow motion. mirror image to what is written. There is one that focuses on the moment that thumb goes where the pinky was and vice versa, with a rotational motion. These are things to practise, and "repetitively" but that can mean a few times - then in a next session a few times - combine and test these things.

There's a lot more to it. My fear is that someone will watch this video and then try to "repeat enough times" and maybe as literally as the Ocean excerpt shows.

Personally, I hate the kinds of intros that say "Let's be honest" (first thing I hate), "you're not improving enough because..." -- latching onto fears - and the "because" .... has she watched the person(s) she is addressing to know the cause of difficulties. Is it even true that the person watching "isn't improving enough"? Maybe the person watching the video is doing too many repetitions. Maybe their teacher sees improvement and growth, and the student doesn't know what to look for.

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