Enough repetitions ~= 1000 for technically difficult passages?

iternabe · 2025-08-11T13:49:46+00:00

She also said it's also not crazy or hard to achieve. I am wondering if this is true. For context, I am not thinking just being able to play that passage w...

iternabe

Maybe this could also explain why it is so hard to get a newly learned piece to be "live performance" ready? Because it is so hard to reach the 1000 times for the few most tricky spots in a short time span. However, if as I learn new pieces, tricky spots in previously learned pieces recur and get practiced along the way, then that should make some of my previously learned piece more secure and performance ready. Right?

BartK

iternabe Maybe this could also explain why it is so hard to get a newly learned piece to be "live performance" ready? Because it is so hard to reach the 1000 times for the few most tricky spots in a short time span. However, if as I learn new pieces, tricky spots in previously learned pieces recur and get practiced along the way, then that should make some of my previously learned piece more secure and performance ready. Right?

I think it's not just a matter of repetitions but also the number of days/weeks/months spent practicing something. We know that sleep consolidates both motor skills and memory so the number of nights sleep you had over a particular passage has a large influence. It's probably impossible to come up with an exact formula but I would say that the raw number of repetitions has about the same amount of influence as the number of days that you practiced something. In other words, even if you crammed 1000 reps in two weeks it would be much less secure as doing it over three months. Even break days seem to have some benefit.

iternabe

Another thing this reminds me about steady persistence is this paragraph from my Peter Feuchtwanger Piano Exercise book:

I'm often asked how long a pianist has to do the exercises before mastering them, and then I like to quote the following (as I did several years ago at an EPTA conference) as a metaphor: A boy travelled across Japan to the school of a famous master of martial arts. When he arrived at the dojo, he was granted an audience with the sensei. The master asked him "What do you want from me?" The boy answered: "I want to be your pupil and become the best karateka in the country. How long will I have to study?" The master replied, "At least ten years". "Ten years is a long time", the boy said, "If I work twice as hard as the other pupils, how long then?" "Twenty years", the master replied. "Twenty years! And if I work day and night and try with all my strength?" The master's answer was "Thirty years". "How is that when I say I'll work more, you say it'll take longer?" the boy asked. "The answer is simple. If you have one eye fixed on your goal, then you only have one eye to find your way."

pianoloverus

iternabe But the more I think about the 1000 times number, the less ridiculous it feels. Take things as simple as scales, would you say you have practice it 1000 times? If it take far less than 1000 times to master a scale, why would any one keep practicing it? On the other hand, nobody is trying to practice a scale 1000 times in as short time span as possible and call it done. It's something to do a few times a day but keep doing for years

I think you have major misconceptions about scales. First of all, they are not at all easy to play well and fast. And as people get better playing them, they usually have to play them faster and faster. Since the main technical issue in scales is passing the thumb under and fingers over, One does not have play a full scale to make use of scalar technique. Since they are so ubiquitous, especially in music of the classical era, one cannot think of learning scales in the same way that one thinks of learning a particular short passage of music. Scales form a big chunk of general technique so "learning scales" is more like "learning technique" which requires many years.

At your present level, if you have to play a piece or passage 1000 times, the piece is either too difficult or you are trying to achieve a level of perfection that's inappropriate.

BartK

pianoloverus Since the main technical issue in scales is passing the thumb under and fingers over

I disagree with that assessment. Passing the thumb is one aspect, which may be important for beginners and intermediates, but in higher tempos the main difficulty is maintaining perfect rhythmic and dynamic evenness and releasing fingers at the exact right moment to maintain a crisp and clear articulation. That is the principal difficulty that an advanced pianist would be working on when practicing scales.

Though I agree that this is part of general technique and practicing scales and arpeggios will benefit pianists of any level.

Simonb

Let's use my grade 8 as an example. I started that in October 2023 and finished in July 2025. That's about 650 days.
There were 3 months at the end of 2024 / early 2025 when my practising went downhill as my house move became very stressful. So I have to allow for that, and I had holidays where I didn't play at all. So let's say that combined is 90 days. That takes my day count 560. Then there were certainly other days where just life itself, and practising for non-classical gigs and stuff got in the way.

So in my example it probably took me around 500 days to learn and record 4 Grade 8 pieces to a standard that got me a merit in the exam. My practise sessions vary from a minimum of about 20 mins to a maximum of close to 2 hours.

No idea what that means in terms of this discussion, but it's interesting to me!

Cheers

pianoloverus

Simonb What percent of your practice time during that period did you spend working on the four pieces?

Player1

Simonb So in my example it probably took me around 500 days to learn and record 4 Grade 8 pieces to a standard that got me a merit in the exam.

Please tell us that you submitted one of these for this recital.

Simonb

Hi "pianoloverus"#p33727

That of course is the important point, and I can't be precise.
Obviously not all of it, as although I wasn't judged (unlike the face to face exams) on scales, arpeggios etc, I did (and do) spend time practising them - in all keys. As well as sections of Hanon that I find useful, and simply playing other music. When you've been working on 4 pieces for over 18 months you do start to get bored with them.

I wouldn't be surprised if it took up 50% of my time, but since I don't keep a log of when, how long and what I practise, I'm afraid all of this is guess work.

Cheers

Player1

My observations are that, as a beginner, I'll spend a lot of time working on individual passages of a piece. When I get them all figured out I'll stitch them together into a whole. Once I have that, I'll practice until the whole is cohesive.

How may repetitions does this take? Several hundred at the least. Then, when looking for that "best of" recording, I'll do several hundred more repetitions. If I were trying for a performance level mastery, I'd most likely do several hundred more repetitions.

All of this takes weeks. And, surprisingly now that I think about it, it's likely the same for top level performers. Not because they're slow learners, but because to them learning new music is just as challenging as the "easy" stuff beginners have to learn. Their music is more complex but that doesn't mean it's "easy" just because they're top level players and have mad skills.

So yeah, I believe the 1000 repetitions is probably close to the actual reality of what it takes no matter who you are.

Simonb

Hi Player1

I'm afraid not. My understanding is that once a video is submitted to the ABRSM for assessment, you are not allowed to share it publicly or via any social media sites.

Cheers

pianoloverus

BartK We can disagree on the primary difficulty playing scales, but my main point was that scales or scale fragments are not simple and also so ubiquitous that they cannot be considered similar to learning some short passage. They are more like learning octaves, arpeggios, legato, etc. ... a major part of piano technique.

Player1

Simonb 'm afraid not. My understanding is that once a video is submitted to the ABRSM for assessment, you are not allowed to share it publicly or via any social media sites.

As far as I can see, that's not a bar for you not being able to do another recording of the same piece.

Nightowl

Playing piano is hard and there don't seem to be any short cuts to playing a piece well. Sometimes it gets boring practising the same piece/measures over and over again, but gradually things improve.

1,000 seems like a massive number of repeats, but thinking about the piece I'm currently working on I've probably played it 10 or 20 times a day for nearly 4 weeks now - so maybe I've played it 500 times already, but I'm still not quite done with it yet. I'm probably reaching the limit of my boredom threshold now, so perhaps I'll move on from this piece soon, but I identify with many of the things that @iternabe, @Player1 and @Sophia said above - it definitely takes me longer to polish pieces these days.

iternabe

Nightowl Playing piano is hard and there don't seem to be any short cuts to playing a piece well.

Although there is no shortcut, my recent experience is there are time to be saved by being guided onto the most efficient path. That said, I do feel my pace of learning is what it is, and it would be unrealistic to expect it can be sped up just by working harder. So I just keep working at it a little a day, and as @BartK said, let sleep and rest does their thing, too.

Nightowl I'm probably reaching the limit of my boredom threshold now

I also find I need small wins from time to time to keep me going. So in addition to the long pieces that I will laboring on for months, I still sprinkle in some short pieces from my method book.

pianoloverus

Nightowl 1,000 seems like a massive number of repeats, but thinking about the piece I'm currently working on I've probably played it 10 or 20 times a day for nearly 4 weeks now - so maybe I've played it 500 times already, but I'm still not quite done with it yet.

500 is a lot but only half of 1000. Are you playing it from beginning to end or are you mostly practicing the more difficult sections? What is the piece?

Nightowl

Yes, I use similar tactics, playing simpler pieces between the more challenging ones. I'm not sure whether my practice is super efficient or not, but I'm making steady progress and it's only a hobby so I just plod along. Practice is more enjoyable now that I've finished the Alfred books, but I still revisit them sometimes to reinforce my basic skills.

Nightowl

pianoloverus Yes, 500 times is a lot and the piece is not that long (24 measures), but it has quite a bit of movement up and down the treble staff and I find it challenging to play those notes fluidly. I alternate my practice between playing the whole piece and working on certain measures. I will not name the piece here as I'm not seeking detailed feedback (although that's something I could do on another thread at some point), I just gave that as an example of how easy it is to clock up 500(ish) plays without really noticing you've done it.

thepianoplayer416 Indeed, but sometimes I only play it a few times a day, hence my guess of circa 500 plays in one month. Maybe the total is nearer 350-400 plays, but anyway I was just agreeing with others that as beginners progress from very basic method book pieces to playing slightly more demanding pieces (maybe grade 3ish) it's probably common to find that the pieces take more time to master (or even muddle through).

As a side note, things would be so much easier if the notes were positioned in identical positions on both clefs (but that subject has been covered before on other threads and there don't seem to be any viable options to revamp the system).

thepianoplayer416

Whatever you’re playing, 20 repeats a day in 5 days would add up to 100, 50 days (under 2 months) would give 1000 repeats.

The more you practice, the better you get and you would need fewer repetitions. A section of a piece the actually requires 1000 repetitions to learn is probably too difficult.

keystring

BartK She is talking about passages that are challenging even for pros like those found in concert etudes.

Yes, and then she gives simplistic advice. She leaves out a whole bunch of things which she substitutes with numbers. Following that as given could be a backward step for students.

MRC

I may have needed 10 repetitions for some passages, 100 for others, and maybe even 1000 for certain ones: I never counted. But concentrating on how many repetitions we might need is not really useful. What is useful, is reflecting on how we use each repetition. Here's an article by Graham Fitch on this subject: How to Manage Repetition in Practice. It's well worth reading the whole article, but I would particularly stress the importance of what Graham calls the Feedback Loop. He introduces it thus:

Before we repeat something, we need to pause a while and think what it is we aim to achieve in the repetition. Hear it vividly in our imagination, and mentally rehearse the passage before we put our hands back on the keyboard (this part of the process is extremely difficult to commit to, and takes a lot of concentration).

Think ten times and play once (Franz Liszt)

The feedback loop helps us to get better at focussing before we play or practise anything. We have a tangible reason to repeat something, and we hold that thought in our consciousness before we play and as we play. Afterwards we learn to reflect on what we did, and to ask ourselves if our result matched our intentions.

I don't know if Liszt actually said "think ten times and play once", but it's fine advice anyway!