The subtleties of pedaling

twocats · 2025-04-15T15:26:27+00:00

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pe...

keystring

@Sgisela - I had one general thought that might get the ball rolling somewhere or might just be whatever. Stream of consciousness.

In notation, we have two elements: a) how we want it to sound; b) what we are to do. We balance these off each other. "What to do" (b) can be staccato dots, that tell us to give those notes a quick poke. We end up with the short quick sound, but simply doing the pokes strictly speaking we're doing a mechanical action per instruction. Pedal marks tell us to lower and raise our foot where the score tells us - we end up with a particular sound. In Chopin we see staccato notes in sections where pedal is held: Chopin is telling us "what to do" and we end up with a particular sound - he is not telling us he wants a staccato sound. That's one part of the equation - "what to do" as physical instructions.

In a) "how we want it to sound" we envision the sound we want. We then do the things that need doing, so as to create that sound. We are in charge of the "what to do".

In the blend of these two things, I'm thinking that the indications written into the music are hints rather than absolute directives. Your music begins with a dreamy scenario of a "palace of enchantment". Immediately I'd envision somewhat washed together but not muddy sound - so not the crisp clarity of a Bach invention. Notes can wash together. How much?

Sgisela You can see that the composer puts an indication of ‘non legato’ while at the same time indicating extensive use of the pedal.

These are sort of redundant. The minute the pedal stays down, the music is non-legato as a result. Our enchanted castle scenario "how to sound" already tells us what "non legato" and the pedal markings will give us as sound.

Those staccato marks further on - I wonder if these are our "troops of genii .... dancing grotesquely" - like, they pop out sharply from the mist and vanish back into it? Is staccato an intended staccato sound, or a staccato action that lets those sounds stand out?

The huge difference in the two pianos is interesting. That sounds like quite a challenge.

pianoloverus

keystring The minute the pedal stays down, the music is non-legato as a result.

When the pedal is down it's certainly possible and in fact very common that the music is legato.

keystring

pianoloverus When the pedal is down it's certainly possible and in fact very common that the music is legato.

If "legato" means that the notes are joined up but don't blur, how do you manage that with the pedal down the whole time? i.e. you get a blur, which is wanted here.

Or - what does "non-legato" or "legato" mean in your estimation?

pianoloverus

keystring When the pedal is down it's certainly possible and in fact very common that the music is legato.

If "legato" means that the notes are joined up but don't blur, how do you manage that with the pedal down the whole time? i.e. you get a blur, which is wanted here.

Or - what does "non-legato" or "legato" mean in your estimation?

Are you talking about the piece posted with the score several posts above this post or are you talking in general? If you think of almost any Chopin Waltz, for example, the pedal is often held down for an entire measure and that measure is played legato. So there's no conflict between playing legato and keeping the pedal down and, in fact, this is incredibly common.

twocats

keystring If "legato" means that the notes are joined up but don't blur, how do you manage that with the pedal down the whole time?

You use the pedal to extend the notes, but "legato" means the notes are connected to each other in a smooth way. You can have the pedal down and play the notes staccato or in an obviously disconnected way, which would be non-legato with pedal applied. It's all about the attack on the notes.

keystring

pianoloverus the pedal is often held down for an entire measure and that measure is played legato.

Can you define "legato"? I gave how I perceive legato. You have notes that go one into the other (not staccato) but they also don't blur together. If the pedal is held down the entire measure, they will blur together. How do you see this? (what does legato mean? what does non-legato mean?)

Meanwhile, I was writing in the context of the given piece.

pianoloverus

keystring the pedal is often held down for an entire measure and that measure is played legato.

Can you define "legato"? I gave how I perceive legato. You have notes that go one into the other (not staccato) but they also don't blur together. If the pedal is held down the entire measure, they will blur together.

Legato just means there's no break in sound from one note to the next. Whether the notes blur or not has nothing to do with legato. If you play C, E, G and put the pedal down before playing C the notes will sound legato and blur together.

iternabe

twocats I suppose if you held the pedal down fully, then whether you play a series of notes with legato finger or staccato finger would make no difference in sound to a blindfolded listener? Or am I missing something here?

keystring

twocats You use the pedal to extend the notes, but "legato" means the notes are connected to each other in a smooth way. You can have the pedal down and play the notes staccato or in an obviously disconnected way, which would be non-legato with pedal applied. It's all about the attack on the notes.

Right. That's how I understood it "connected to each other in a smooth way.

Let's concentrate on "non-legato". I'd normally think of that as "not connected" - in other words, some level of staccato. But in legato I also see one note connected to the next note, but not all the notes piling on top of each other. A, B, C - the end of A blends a bit into B but then ceases; B blends a bit in to C but then ceases. We don't still hear A by the time C arrives. If the notes pile into each other, is that still legato, or has it stopped being legato from the other end?

If "non-legato" means that the notes must be separated as in some level of staccato, you'd not be able to achieve this by holding the pedal down. Therefore I saw "non-legato" as meaning that you can have the notes pile into each other.

Either that, or we have nonsensical instructions.

twocats

iternabe it would be a completely different sound! Try it out and see 🙂

The staccato means a percussive attack, which can be clearly heard even if the notes then blend together because of the pedal.

iternabe

twocats I tried, but I couldn’t hear any difference. What did I miss?

Here’s what I did:

Pedal down and hold
Play c d e f g with legato finger
Play c d e f g with staccato finger

The only difference I could make is if the I vary dynamics.

keystring

twocats The staccato means a percussive attack, which can be clearly heard even if the notes then blend together because of the pedal.

I remember going over this a long time ago. It seems there are some varying views. The percussive attack I understood to be marcato. Staccato being some degree of non-legato, with discretion as to how much silent space between notes, how short a duration of each note. At the extreme almost-legato end we have portato. So as I understand it, there may be some different definitions floating around about that dot.

twocats

iternabe I'll make a demo next time I get on the piano.

pianoloverus

iternabe I tried, but I couldn’t hear any difference. What did I miss?

Here’s what I did:
Pedal down and hold
Play c d e f g with legato finger
Play c d e f g with staccato finger

The only difference I could make is if the I vary dynamics.

You should not choose notes that will blur the harmony because the dissonance will make it much harder to hear what's happening. Play some notes like C , E, G, C. Although I'm not 100 percent sure I basically agree with you that there will be no difference in sound between the unless you play this staccato passage at a different dynamic. There are a few famous passages where the composer marks staccato with the pedal. Maybe the most famous being the first Debussy Prelude from book one.

twocats

keystring If the notes pile into each other, is that still legato, or has it stopped being legato from the other end?

I wrote the stuff below, but agree with what Bart said!

Legato refers to the final effect to your ear. Does it sound like a smooth line to your ear? That's all that matters.

keystring I remember going over this a long time ago. It seems there are some varying views. The percussive attack I understood to be marcato. Staccato being some degree of non-legato, with discretion as to how much silent space between notes, how short a duration of each note. At the extreme almost-legato end we have portato. So as I understand it, there may be some different definitions floating around about that dot.

I don't think the correct approach is to assign exact rules to every instance of these. They are general guidelines but the exact execution may vary depending on the music. The thing that really matters is: what is my (or the composer's) musical intention and then how do I go about achieving that effect?

Sometimes a staccato can be a very sharp staccato but sometimes a gentle one. Sometimes I play staccato but with pedal, say on a big dramatic chord but I want it to ring out a bit after (using the pedal resonance), and I control the ending of the sound using the pedal. It's all just another tool in the box, as you said, for creating the musical effect that you want 🙂

BartK

In my mind legato is much more of a phrasing concept than a pure physical connection concept. You can play a bunch of notes with a physical connection with the fingers and yet they might still sound "disconnected" if the phrasing doesn't have direction.

Overlapping or blurring also has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Non-legato means the notes are detatched but it doesn't mean you can't pedal. Pedaling on each note is quite common and adds color to "non-legato" passages.

keystring

twocats Sometimes a staccato can be a very sharp staccato but sometimes a gentle one.

In the experiment for Internabe, if he executes a gentle staccato while holding the pedal down, and plays legato while holding the pedal down, he'll get the same sound, which is the results he reported.

BartK Non-legato means the notes are detached but it doesn't mean you can't pedal. Pedaling on each note is quite common and adds color to "non-legato" passages.

If non-legato only means the notes are detached, then the instructions in the music are nonsensical. The instructions are to hold the pedal down for the whole measure. I was hoping to find a secondary meaning to "legato / non-legato" to justify the instructions but that was grasping at straws.

Bottom line: I'd go for the musical effect that I want to achieve, and take the specific instructions written into the music with a big grain of salt.

twocats

keystring In the experiment for Internabe, if he executes a gentle staccato while holding the pedal down, and plays legato while holding the pedal down, he'll get the same sound, which is the results he reported.

I don't think he's doing the demo correctly, then. Maybe his legato is not as smooth as it should be. Or he's not listening closely enough. I know that if I'm playing an arpeggiated figure in the left hand with pedal, if I do legato using my hand or if I play it detached, it will sound different.

keystring If non-legato only means the notes are detached, then the instructions in the music are nonsensical. The instructions are to hold the pedal down for the whole measure.

I think the composer's intentions are quite clear! He wants you to hold the pedal down but he wants to hear that the notes are detached and does not want them phrased smoothly.

keystring

twocats I don't think he's doing the demo correctly, then. Maybe his legato is not as smooth as it should be. Or he's not listening closely enough. I know that if I'm playing an arpeggiated figure in the left hand with pedal, if I do legato using my hand or if I play it detached, it will sound different.

This is actually something I've had demonstrated to me and seen demonstrated by a few teachers. The point is, in fact, that legato over pedal, and non-detached (i.e. neutral staccato) over pedal will sound the same. But if you're aiming for a particular effect, and have a particular staccato in mind, there will indeed be a difference. That's how I've seen it demonstrated.

keystring

twocats I think the composer's intentions are quite clear! He wants you to hold the pedal down but he wants to hear that the notes are detached and does not want them phrased smoothly.

Yes, that is what the composer is picturing. But is also an impossibility. You cannot have detached notes if the pedal is continuously down. We do get nonsensical things in scores, for example if the composer is thinking instrumentally but wrote for the piano. Think of a long note held for 4 - 8 beats in slow music, and that long note is supposed to crescendo - or maybe rise and wane again.

You can go by the intended effect: the mysterious palace and such - and make your own decisions about pedal and such, using the markings as rough guides.

keystring

You had originally written in responding to me:

twocats I know that if I'm playing an arpeggiated figure in the left hand with pedal, if I do legato using my hand or if I play it detached, it will sound different.

This will depend on the articulation. That is what got stressed this time around. You can indeed get the same sound using legato with the hand, or detached with the hand, depending on your "touch". Otoh, what Iternabe did was also not incorrect when he got the same sound. It could mess someone up if they believe things work differently than they do.

BartK wrote an important post 3 days ago, talking about the composer's intended musical effect. That's the starting point. If you know what kind of sound and effect you are aiming for, then you will work with the variables. You want some kind of 'detached' or differentiated sound despite pedal being down, and you articulate the notes in the manner you just illustrated, and also stressed through the word "staccato" the other day.

twocats

keystring This is actually something I've had demonstrated to me and seen demonstrated by a few teachers. The point is, in fact, that legato over pedal, and non-detached (i.e. neutral staccato) over pedal will sound the same.

I'm pretty sure in these cases that they are trying to demonstrate how you can use the pedal to create a legato line. So they are actively trying to make it sound the same.

keystring Yes, that is what the composer is picturing. But is also an impossibility. You cannot have detached notes if the pedal is continuously down.

You can't have literal detached notes, but the phrasing can clearly be detached. It's what Bart said, legato refers to the phrasing.

Imagine church bells. Even though they have resonance and the sounds blend together, you just can't do a legato melody on church bells because each note is so percussive.

keystring

I should bow out now on the present thing. I was actually hoping to jump start some ideas on the music Sgisela posted.

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