The subtleties of pedaling

twocats · 2025-04-15T15:26:27+00:00

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pe...

iternabe

Stub So this aural dirt from acoustic pianos--what is it's root cause? It's not only overtones because digitals can build overtones in as well. Is it overtones from the constantly shifting in tune, out of tune sound sound coming from a typical acoustic? So regular overtones plus overtones coming from an ever so slightly out of tune piano?

I recently looked into this topic of overtone and resonance, and came away with the (not really scientifically proven) understanding what handicaps digital sound can be: 1) the quality of the overtone, and 2) the blending of the overtones with the base tone that's making the difference. The blending is even more difficult with sampled sound, and to do it properly is an art in itself more than science.

twocats

@keystring here's the demo you requested! I ended up doing full pedal, "a touch of pedal", and what I think is about half. I can hear the difference in the video even on my phone.

keystring

@twocats - thank you so much. This is excellent and now I know what this is about. I'm glad you included music at the end because the reason for the choice is very clear. Whatever I learned a few years ago, I misunderstood some of it.

twocats

Stub It's not only overtones because digitals can build overtones in as well. Is it overtones from the constantly shifting in tune, out of tune sound sound coming from a typical acoustic?

I think they model some of the overtones but not all of them. And there's just the sheer resonance of an acoustic that's a huge wave of sound coming from the soundboard, a digital just can't replicate that!

keystring

twocats I think they model some of the overtones but not all of them. And there's just the sheer resonance of an acoustic that's a huge wave of sound coming from the soundboard, a digital just can't replicate that!

I did a partial test on my Kawai hybrid. I know part of the harmonic series. If I held down G, then the G octave, the D above that etc. had additional resonance - similar to when you play a fingered D on the A string of a violin you'll know when you're perfectly in tune through that sympathetic resonance. Holding down an entire G chord (GBD) liberated more partials, so to say.

On an acoustic, it's not just the strings, but also the body that vibrates, giving a rich, 3-dimensional sound. My digital tries to mimic some of that through the soundboard across its length in the back, with transducers that cause the soundboard to vibrate when you turn that feature on and play into the room. It's not the same as the real thing, but it does add a dimension.

I'm also in a "paper-thin walls" situation. I also like the freedom of hours because with a headset on, nobody will be disturbed when I play.

ShiroKuro

Ok, I finally had a chance to listen to the recordings by @keystring and @twocats . Very interesting, thank you both for uploading those. It’s very interesting to hear and think about these differences. I didn’t have time to play with it myself last night, but I’ll try to listen to my pedaling in some of those ways tonight.

twocats And there's just the sheer resonance of an acoustic that's a huge wave of sound coming from the soundboard, a digital just can't replicate that!

Yes especially to this point.

And here is where my comment about “aural dirt” comes in… or if you don’t like the word dirt, we can call it “acoustic overtones” and “acoustic resonance” to distinguish from the digital versions of that… because what happens with an acoustic piano is that these overtones and resonance (the dirt!) end up being unique to each instrument to an extreme that can’t be replicated.

But of course to @keystring ’s other point, the digital provides so much benefit that an acoustic can’t replicate, in terms of silent playing, affordability (depending on the model of course, some are not at all affordable!) portability etc.

One last comment… to this point:

BartK The ear must be your guide. There isn't a precise recipe because it depends on the piano and the room accoustics.

The piano that we end up using most often at my lesson (because they have different rooms and sometimes we get moved around but anyway) is a Yamaha upright that was probably a nice piano at one point but now is not so much, because it needs some serious TLC/maintenance , and needs to not be in front of the heating vent like it is… This piano’s pedals squeak… well that’s not the right word but anyway you can hear them moving. And it feels/sounds like nothing happens until the pedal almost totally bottoms out, then finally you can tell that the damper has been moved. I suspect it just needs to be adjusted. Also this piano is very clangy and loud overall.

So yesterday we were talking about my recital prep and I could tell my teacher was getting frustrating with the piano because he was saying there are somethings we just can’t do with it in terms of working on dynamics and pedaling. And then he was talking about the recital piano (a S&S grand that is also a bit old and needs some TLC) and he said that my piano (which he’s heard in recordings) is obviously nicer than either of these instruments…

In that case, I am sure there are some digitals that would have b even for our lesson topics yesterday.

BartK

WieWaldi Someone (I think it was @BartK ) mentioned, many pianists get used to the habit to quickly release the pedal than then immediately press it again at a chord change. And he said this is bad habit, because that short lifting does not fully dampen the strings, especially on the lower tones.

I don't remember saying that but I do remember saying to pedal by ear. I often use the effect mentioned by keystring. When you play a grand piano regularly you begin to get a feel for the sounds that come out and what to do with the pedal to get the effect you want. Sometimes it's a quick change, sometimes it's a partial pedal, sometimes it's fluttering up and down rapidly. The ear must be your guide. There isn't a precise recipe because it depends on the piano and the room accoustics.

pianoloverus

WieWaldi Thank you, keystring. This is a very good point. Someone (I think it was @BartK ) mentioned, many pianists get used to the habit to quickly release the pedal than then immediately press it again at a chord change. And he said this is bad habit, because that short lifting does not fully dampen the strings, especially on the lower tones.

That all depends on how quickly the pedal release is and how immediately it's pressed again.

keystring

pianoloverus That all depends on how quickly the pedal release is and how immediately it's pressed again.

That was the point of the "quick pedal" I learned a few years ago, which turned out to be a partial thing leading to other things you can do. The weird sounding exercise was simply managing to flick the pedal so as to have the dampers touch the strings, muting all the sounds but leaving a residual sound (as in the recording). It was a matter of getting a feel for that split second time.

ShiroKuro

P.S. I totally forgot I was going to look at those Einaudi scores yesterday… sorry @twocats ! Will try to do so later!

danno858

Jane I enjoy hearing my piano from a different part of the room - I can even appreciate it more from being in the audience so to speak. Jane plays some beautiful Rachmaninoff and it sounds like a different piano than when I play. My piano should be back from the rebuilders next month so I’m looking forward to hearing her play it.

ShiroKuro

danno858 I enjoy hearing my piano from a different part of the room

I love hearing someone else play my piano too! It does indeed sound very different compared to when I play it myself.

BartK

keystring That was the point of the "quick pedal" I learned a few years ago, which turned out to be a partial thing leading to other things you can do. The weird sounding exercise was simply managing to flick the pedal so as to have the dampers touch the strings, muting all the sounds but leaving a residual sound (as in the recording). It was a matter of getting a feel for that split second time.

This is useful to keep some of the bass harmony while avoiding blurring a melodic line. Bass strings are heavier and need more time to fully dampen so if you change the pedal quickly then the higher strings will stop while the bass strings will have some residual vibration.

pianoloverus

keystring That all depends on how quickly the pedal release is and how immediately it's pressed again.

That was the point of the "quick pedal" I learned a few years ago, which turned out to be a partial thing leading to other things you can do. The weird sounding exercise was simply managing to flick the pedal so as to have the dampers touch the strings, muting all the sounds but leaving a residual sound (as in the recording). It was a matter of getting a feel for that split second time.

I think without giving specific examples this discussion of quick pedal much of the discussion on the whole thread becomes very unclear and ambiguous. My interpretation of what quick pedal means is the idea of sometimes just quick pedaling say a single chord if one wants to somehow emphasize it or make it sound richer by allowing other strings besides those in the chord to vibrate besides the strings for the notes in the chord. But I really can't tell from the posts thus far if that's what other people are talking about . But when I mark pedaling in a score I know I've occasionally marked just a single chord. I did that at least one place in this version of music from Lalaland.

So I think it would be a good idea for those of you who unlike me know how to post scores and even better scores that are marked would do that in a discussion like this so people can have a better idea what you mean. That's why all the books about pedaling are filled with pages showing scores with this specific type of pedaling discussed marched in.

iternabe

ShiroKuro I love hearing someone else play my piano too! It does indeed sound very different compared to when I play it myself.

The engineers at Pianoteq thought about that, too. Although their default sound profile for each digital piano model is from the side, they included a "player" profile that has the simulated mic placed where the player's head is. The two profiles indeed sound quite differently.

iternabe

One thing I noticed just recently on my digital piano and Pianoteq is there is clear difference in sound between:

Pedal down first, then play a single note
Play a single note, then immediately press pedal down (before releasing the note)

I suppose it is the same with the acoustic?

twocats

iternabe One thing I noticed just recently on my digital piano and Pianoteq is there is clear difference in sound between:

Pedal down first, then play a single note
Play a single note, then immediately press pedal down (before releasing the note)

Yes, you get more resonance and volume if the damper pedal is used before you strike the note.

keystring

iternabe One thing I noticed just recently on my digital piano and Pianoteq is there is clear difference in sound between:

Pedal down first, then play a single note
Play a single note, then immediately press pedal down (before releasing the note)

If you press the pedal down first, then you have lifted all the dampers off all the strings. Therefore when you play that first note, the two or three strings that make up that note will vibrate, but other strings will also co-vibrate to various degrees depending on the harmonic series which is physics. You'll have a richer sound. If you play the note and then raise the dampers, then at the moment of playing that note your finger has raised one damper allowing only the strings of that note will vibrate. I don't know the series well: there's the octave, the fifth. That's what I tested this morning to see whether my hybrid DP had this element.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)

This is an image of the overtones you get from that very low C.

iternabe

twocats Yes, you get more resonance and volume if the damper pedal is used before you strike the note.

Yes. But what strike me was not just the volume of the resonance differs, but also the sound character - it’s not quite timber/color, but more of a swell/whoosh when pedal down first.

twocats

iternabe if I have big chords and I want them to be really big, I will pedal them even if I don't have to do it for legato, just to get that resonance effect!

Sophia

ShiroKuro aural dirt

Does regular dirt count? Say it does, please do! <hangs head in shame, gets out dust cloth>

iternabe

keystring If you play the note and then raise the dampers, then at the moment of playing that note your finger has raised one damper allowing only the strings of that note will vibrate.

This is correct. However, after playing the note, if I press the sustain pedal to raise the damper while still holding the finger down, the other string will become free to resonate. Of course because the original string's vibration begin to decay immediately, the resonance will be weaker, too. That is expected. What I didn't expect (but do hear from Pianoteq) is not only the resonance is weaker if I press pedal after play, but the resonance's sound signature is different, too. Pedal down first, the resonance has a swell/woosh in it. Pedal down later, the resonance doesn't swell and also sounds cleaner or more sterile.

My hypothesis is the "attack" phase of original string's vibration excites the other strings differently than the "decay" phase?

keystring

BartK This is useful to keep some of the bass harmony while avoiding blurring a melodic line. Bass strings are heavier and need more time to fully dampen so if you change the pedal quickly then the higher strings will stop while the bass strings will have some residual vibration.

Yes! That is indeed something I've used. In music we often have a bassline which is also often slower, and we'd like to keep that going underneath, while the upper notes are moving a lot faster, and a constant pedal would blur them. So we can use the properties of the thicker and thinner strings to our advantage. (something like that)

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