The subtleties of pedaling

twocats · 2025-04-15T15:26:27+00:00

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pe...

twocats

iternabe I do have a question about technique: does anyone feel wearing shoes vs bare foot (with socks) makes a difference in your ability to control the pedal with the nuance you are trying to achieve?

I think I just adjust! Sometimes I am wearing slippers with a sturdy sole and sometimes just socks, and both are fine. Someone in the Tonebase video (was it Garrick Ohlsson?) said to pedal with the ball of your foot so I've been trying to make sure I'm not pedaling with my toes.

ShiroKuro

iternabe if you ask me if this artificially created digital imperfection is as imperfect as natural imperfection of an acoustic piano

To me, the question is, is it as luscious as the natural imperfection of an acoustic piano? (why yes, I do think aural dirt is luscious! 😂

iternabe I do have a question about technique: does anyone feel wearing shoes vs bare foot (with socks) makes a difference in your ability to control the subtleties with pedaling?

Years ago, I used to pedal barefoot but now I always wear shoes. If I'm at home, I have indoor shoes with a minimal sole. If I'm out and about, I choose the shoes carefully, always flats and definitely no exercise shoes with massive stack height for example.

Like @twocats I try to make sure I'm not using my toes, I want the ball of my foot to be on the fullness of the pedal. When I sit down at a new piano, one of the first things I do is make sure my foot knows where the pedal and that it's in the right position to hit the pedal where I want it to.

keystring

iternabe Personally, I feel "half pedal" capability for a DP something of a misnomer.

Probably. But I also didn't write anything about half-pedal. I gave an example of something, and clarified what kind of piano I was playing since in this discussion, that matters. I further clarified which kind of DP because, for example, with my old low-end Yamaha, the pedal had to be depressed all the way down and up again to engage and release the sustain pedal, and that also limited what kind of sound could be produced. This has nothing to do with half pedal, however.

I asked for an example of half pedal within an simple non-musical context so as to have some kind of point of reference.

iternabe

keystring I did not mean any problem with you using the word half-pedal. If my comment came through that way, I apologize. It rather a personal observation seeing the word being used loosely in online product description and also some forum discussions. There are a few pedals being marketed as capable of being "continous" and that to me is a much accurate description.

keystring

ShiroKuro always thought that the problem with digitals and hybrid (here I mainly mean the Yamaha AvantGrand, which is the only hybrid I've played) is that they are too clean, not organic enough.

You are right. But that's what I'm stuck with. So I went for the best option that was available. I was interested above all in the mechanical side - how the keys and pedal behaved physically so that if I transitioned to an acoustic, the behaviour would be similar. My aim involved physically playing the piano. For example, with my old cheap Yamaha, I had to push the keys way down and with a fair amount of force. When I first got the hybrid I was like a truck driver suddenly trying to learn to drive a Ferrari. I had to sensitize my hands to even feel the responsiveness on the physical side.

WieWaldi

ShiroKuro have you ever heard a digital that didn't sound perfect?

With the upright sample (AFAIK they sampled a Kawai K60) the D#1 has a clangy/metallic tone. Much more than the adjacent keys.

ShiroKuro

@keystring I certainly don't mean to disparage digitals! I started on a digital, and then after owning an acoustic upright for almost 9 years, me moved so I could go back to school, and then I had a digital again for 7 years. Those digitals are what made it possible for me to play the piano, and I will be forever grateful that they exist!

So I meant my comments to be just about pedaling and what you get in terms of resonance (or aural dirt, since I'm now going to say that every chance I get. 😛

WieWaldi the D#1 has a clangy/metallic tone

Wow, that's interesting!!

twocats

WieWaldi With the upright sample (AFAIK they sampled a Kawai K60) the D#1 has a clangy/metallic tone. Much more than the adjacent keys.

Someone didn't voice that note before they sampled it!

Stub

WieWaldi Good one! 😁

Stub

So this aural dirt from acoustic pianos--what is it's root cause? It's not only overtones because digitals can build overtones in as well. Is it overtones from the constantly shifting in tune, out of tune sound sound coming from a typical acoustic? So regular overtones plus overtones coming from an ever so slightly out of tune piano?

iternabe

Stub So this aural dirt from acoustic pianos--what is it's root cause? It's not only overtones because digitals can build overtones in as well. Is it overtones from the constantly shifting in tune, out of tune sound sound coming from a typical acoustic? So regular overtones plus overtones coming from an ever so slightly out of tune piano?

I recently looked into this topic of overtone and resonance, and came away with the (not really scientifically proven) understanding what handicaps digital sound can be: 1) the quality of the overtone, and 2) the blending of the overtones with the base tone that's making the difference. The blending is even more difficult with sampled sound, and to do it properly is an art in itself more than science.

twocats

Stub It's not only overtones because digitals can build overtones in as well. Is it overtones from the constantly shifting in tune, out of tune sound sound coming from a typical acoustic?

I think they model some of the overtones but not all of them. And there's just the sheer resonance of an acoustic that's a huge wave of sound coming from the soundboard, a digital just can't replicate that!

Stub

At home I play with slippers on. The slippers have a flexible plastic sole. Playing with only socks on feels to slippery. At my piano lesson, it's Reebok Classics all the way.

Jane

twocats I have to know, did you end up upgrading to an acoustic after going to piano camp??

I live in an apartment overlooking the ocean.
It has cardboard walls. I have neighbors.
So far the lust for acoustic hasn't been sufficient to push me into finding a house somewhere (especially with California real estate prices).
So no, I have my Avant Grand, HD600 headphones, and a dozen or so virtual pianos - primarily using the Modern D in recent months. I'm grateful that's as good as it is.
@danno858 lives about 15 miles from me, and has kindly had me over to play on his Steinway grand on occasion - those visits account for about half of the 10 hours I mentioned.
And I've signed up for one "week" (actually 4 days) of Tonebase's Los Angeles piano intensive next month, so I'll have a few days there on acoustics.

danno858

Jane I enjoy hearing my piano from a different part of the room - I can even appreciate it more from being in the audience so to speak. Jane plays some beautiful Rachmaninoff and it sounds like a different piano than when I play. My piano should be back from the rebuilders next month so I’m looking forward to hearing her play it.

twocats

@keystring here's the demo you requested! I ended up doing full pedal, "a touch of pedal", and what I think is about half. I can hear the difference in the video even on my phone.

keystring

@twocats - thank you so much. This is excellent and now I know what this is about. I'm glad you included music at the end because the reason for the choice is very clear. Whatever I learned a few years ago, I misunderstood some of it.

keystring

twocats I think they model some of the overtones but not all of them. And there's just the sheer resonance of an acoustic that's a huge wave of sound coming from the soundboard, a digital just can't replicate that!

I did a partial test on my Kawai hybrid. I know part of the harmonic series. If I held down G, then the G octave, the D above that etc. had additional resonance - similar to when you play a fingered D on the A string of a violin you'll know when you're perfectly in tune through that sympathetic resonance. Holding down an entire G chord (GBD) liberated more partials, so to say.

On an acoustic, it's not just the strings, but also the body that vibrates, giving a rich, 3-dimensional sound. My digital tries to mimic some of that through the soundboard across its length in the back, with transducers that cause the soundboard to vibrate when you turn that feature on and play into the room. It's not the same as the real thing, but it does add a dimension.

I'm also in a "paper-thin walls" situation. I also like the freedom of hours because with a headset on, nobody will be disturbed when I play.

ShiroKuro

Ok, I finally had a chance to listen to the recordings by @keystring and @twocats . Very interesting, thank you both for uploading those. It’s very interesting to hear and think about these differences. I didn’t have time to play with it myself last night, but I’ll try to listen to my pedaling in some of those ways tonight.

twocats And there's just the sheer resonance of an acoustic that's a huge wave of sound coming from the soundboard, a digital just can't replicate that!

Yes especially to this point.

And here is where my comment about “aural dirt” comes in… or if you don’t like the word dirt, we can call it “acoustic overtones” and “acoustic resonance” to distinguish from the digital versions of that… because what happens with an acoustic piano is that these overtones and resonance (the dirt!) end up being unique to each instrument to an extreme that can’t be replicated.

But of course to @keystring ’s other point, the digital provides so much benefit that an acoustic can’t replicate, in terms of silent playing, affordability (depending on the model of course, some are not at all affordable!) portability etc.

One last comment… to this point:

BartK The ear must be your guide. There isn't a precise recipe because it depends on the piano and the room accoustics.

The piano that we end up using most often at my lesson (because they have different rooms and sometimes we get moved around but anyway) is a Yamaha upright that was probably a nice piano at one point but now is not so much, because it needs some serious TLC/maintenance , and needs to not be in front of the heating vent like it is… This piano’s pedals squeak… well that’s not the right word but anyway you can hear them moving. And it feels/sounds like nothing happens until the pedal almost totally bottoms out, then finally you can tell that the damper has been moved. I suspect it just needs to be adjusted. Also this piano is very clangy and loud overall.

So yesterday we were talking about my recital prep and I could tell my teacher was getting frustrating with the piano because he was saying there are somethings we just can’t do with it in terms of working on dynamics and pedaling. And then he was talking about the recital piano (a S&S grand that is also a bit old and needs some TLC) and he said that my piano (which he’s heard in recordings) is obviously nicer than either of these instruments…

In that case, I am sure there are some digitals that would have b even for our lesson topics yesterday.

BartK

WieWaldi Someone (I think it was @BartK ) mentioned, many pianists get used to the habit to quickly release the pedal than then immediately press it again at a chord change. And he said this is bad habit, because that short lifting does not fully dampen the strings, especially on the lower tones.

I don't remember saying that but I do remember saying to pedal by ear. I often use the effect mentioned by keystring. When you play a grand piano regularly you begin to get a feel for the sounds that come out and what to do with the pedal to get the effect you want. Sometimes it's a quick change, sometimes it's a partial pedal, sometimes it's fluttering up and down rapidly. The ear must be your guide. There isn't a precise recipe because it depends on the piano and the room accoustics.

pianoloverus

WieWaldi Thank you, keystring. This is a very good point. Someone (I think it was @BartK ) mentioned, many pianists get used to the habit to quickly release the pedal than then immediately press it again at a chord change. And he said this is bad habit, because that short lifting does not fully dampen the strings, especially on the lower tones.

That all depends on how quickly the pedal release is and how immediately it's pressed again.

keystring

pianoloverus That all depends on how quickly the pedal release is and how immediately it's pressed again.

That was the point of the "quick pedal" I learned a few years ago, which turned out to be a partial thing leading to other things you can do. The weird sounding exercise was simply managing to flick the pedal so as to have the dampers touch the strings, muting all the sounds but leaving a residual sound (as in the recording). It was a matter of getting a feel for that split second time.

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