The subtleties of pedaling

twocats · 2025-04-15T15:26:27+00:00

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pe...

ShiroKuro

WieWaldi using this effect as pedaling technique

Some contemporary composers do this kind of pedaling which, rather than clearing out the resonance, aims to preserve and amplify it. In other kinds of music, that would be considered "over-pedaling". Einaudi in particular is very distinctive with his pedaling, and in addition to over-pedaling, he also specifies una corda pedaling as well. And of course, his pedaling technique would make a lot of the traditional classical repertoire sound muddy...

twocats

ShiroKuro Einaudi in particular is very distinctive with his pedaling, and in addition to over-pedaling, he also specifies una corda pedaling as well.

Interesting, how does he specify it? Does he have a blurb describing how he wants the piece to be played?

ShiroKuro

twocats how does he specify it? Does he have a blurb describing how he wants the piece to be played?

I'll have to look when I get home, but a lot of his scores have not only pedal indicates but una corda pedal indications.

And re the "over-pedaling," I have not read him commenting on it, only other people talking about it. I think it was in one of those online music magazines like Interlude or something.... But I just googled "Einaudi pedal technique" and am not finding it... :/

ShiroKuro

keystring what half pedal actually sounds like "in the raw"

Jane And no matter how good the digital, there definitely is a difference.

I always thought that the problem with digitals and hybrid (here I mainly mean the Yamaha AvantGrand, which is the only hybrid I've played) is that they are too clean, not organic enough.

When pedaling an acoustic, there's always a degree of aural dirt involved, and that's why the sound has such rich texture. So when pedaling or rather half-pedaling or quick re-pedals, you leave some of the dirt behind and that's actually what contributes to the richness of the sound....

twocats

ShiroKuro aural dirt

Hahaha this made me laugh! I think you mean overtones 🙂

keystring

ShiroKuro always thought that the problem with digitals and hybrid (here I mainly mean the Yamaha AvantGrand, which is the only hybrid I've played) is that they are too clean, not organic enough.

You are right. But that's what I'm stuck with. So I went for the best option that was available. I was interested above all in the mechanical side - how the keys and pedal behaved physically so that if I transitioned to an acoustic, the behaviour would be similar. My aim involved physically playing the piano. For example, with my old cheap Yamaha, I had to push the keys way down and with a fair amount of force. When I first got the hybrid I was like a truck driver suddenly trying to learn to drive a Ferrari. I had to sensitize my hands to even feel the responsiveness on the physical side.

Sophia

ShiroKuro aural dirt

Does regular dirt count? Say it does, please do! <hangs head in shame, gets out dust cloth>

ShiroKuro

twocats I think you mean overtones

Yes, but you could have overtones in a digital, esp. the more recent ones which have state of the art sampling and sound production methods. But with a digital, it's just too perfect.

That's why I literally want to call it aural dirt. 😆
ETA or even acoustic aural dirt, that would be more accurate. 😁

twocats

ShiroKuro I'll have to look when I get home, but a lot of his scores have not only pedal indicates but una corda pedal indications.

And re the "over-pedaling," I have not read him commenting on it, only other people talking about it. I think it was in one of those online music magazines like Interlude or something.... But I just googled "Einaudi pedal technique" and am not finding it... :/

Ah yes, una corda is usually marked if the composer explicitly wants it, but I've never heard of overpedaling written into the score!

ShiroKuro

twocats overpedaling written into the score!

ah... yeah, maybe it's not???? 😅 lemme wait till I get home later.

re the una corda, what I was trying to convey is that Einaudi writes in una corda a lot more than other composers, but I probably shouldn't say that since I don't look at a lot of classical scores.

twocats

ShiroKuro Yes, but you could have overtones in a digital, esp. the more recent ones which have state of the art sampling and sound production methods. But with a digital, it's just too perfect.

There's some that are modeled in there, but not all! 🙂

ShiroKuro

twocats There's some that are modeled in there, but not all

have you ever heard a digital that didn't sound perfect?

I don't know if the Yamaha Avant Grand is "top of the line," and in fact, there are probably sample pianos that have more complexity, but the Avant Grand is the most expensive digital I've ever played, and even that, it was just soooo sterile. Too perfect.

I don't know how else to describe it. But I need some aural dirt coming out of my piano!!!
😆

I think that's the secret sauce, the magic of acoustic instruments, and I just can't believe that any digital could reproduce that.....
(hopefully no one from the digital forum will come at me... I would guess "them's fightin words..." 😅

twocats

ShiroKuro even that, it was just soooo sterile. Too perfect.

I know what you're talking about! Part of it is that the piano starts to go out of tune even before the tech has left your house! And of course there's just so much resonance in an acoustic that you just can't get from a digital.

I just think your term is very funny 😂

iternabe

ShiroKuro have you ever heard a digital that didn't sound perfect?

Pianoteq has a feature to adjust the condition of its modeled piano from "Mint" to "Worn". So it is possible to get it sound to one's desired degree of imperfect 😉 One can also mess with the tuning, globally or even on individual notes.

But, if you ask me if this artificially created digital imperfection is as imperfect as natural imperfection of an acoustic piano, I would not know the answer.

WieWaldi

ShiroKuro have you ever heard a digital that didn't sound perfect?

With the upright sample (AFAIK they sampled a Kawai K60) the D#1 has a clangy/metallic tone. Much more than the adjacent keys.

ShiroKuro

twocats I just think your term is very funny

It is a funny term, I admit it!! 😆

twocats

Jane I spent a lot of time and money - two and a half weeks unpaid time off work - to go to last summer's Tonebase piano camp in Vermont primarily for the opportunity to play an acoustic piano. I've played an electronic piano with headphones for decades and prior to that camp had only played an acoustic for maybe 10 hours in the previous 15 years. 🙄

And no matter how good the digital, there definitely is a difference.

I have to know, did you end up upgrading to an acoustic after going to piano camp??

Jane

twocats I have to know, did you end up upgrading to an acoustic after going to piano camp??

I live in an apartment overlooking the ocean.
It has cardboard walls. I have neighbors.
So far the lust for acoustic hasn't been sufficient to push me into finding a house somewhere (especially with California real estate prices).
So no, I have my Avant Grand, HD600 headphones, and a dozen or so virtual pianos - primarily using the Modern D in recent months. I'm grateful that's as good as it is.
@danno858 lives about 15 miles from me, and has kindly had me over to play on his Steinway grand on occasion - those visits account for about half of the 10 hours I mentioned.
And I've signed up for one "week" (actually 4 days) of Tonebase's Los Angeles piano intensive next month, so I'll have a few days there on acoustics.

iternabe

keystring In the meantime, could you, or someone, create a sample of half pedal, maybe with equally simple (or same) music - part of a single note scale, a series of diatonic chords? I'd liked to know what that is supposed to sound like.

(I have a digital, but hybrid piano - Kawai CA 97)

Sorry if my following comment is veering towards technical instead of artistic. This discussion of pedal feel of DP vs acoustic reminded me of a wonderful post by @MRC.

I looked up Kawai CA97. It has the F-302 Grand Feel pedal board which is a self-enclosed pedal unit quite similar to the GFP-3 pedal that came with my MP11SE. But it's nothing like in a true hybrid like NV-10S where the pedal actually is mechanically pushing up real dampers to give the graded and non-linear feel. Based on this thread on PW, F-302 and GFP-3 feels quite similar. My GFP-3 has good resistance, operates smoothly, and each of the 3 pedals is graded with different weight. But it does not have that distinct feel of engagement zone.

Personally, I feel "half pedal" capability for a DP something of a misnomer. It can be misunderstood as if the pedal has 3 states: down, half down, and up. In reality, the cheap DP pedals have two states: down, and up, while better pedals support continuous variation from fully down to fully up. This can easily be visualized the live pedal curve display in Pianoteq, and the effect heard clearly (assuming Pianoteq is modeling it correctly).

keystring

iternabe Personally, I feel "half pedal" capability for a DP something of a misnomer.

Probably. But I also didn't write anything about half-pedal. I gave an example of something, and clarified what kind of piano I was playing since in this discussion, that matters. I further clarified which kind of DP because, for example, with my old low-end Yamaha, the pedal had to be depressed all the way down and up again to engage and release the sustain pedal, and that also limited what kind of sound could be produced. This has nothing to do with half pedal, however.

I asked for an example of half pedal within an simple non-musical context so as to have some kind of point of reference.

ShiroKuro

iternabe if you ask me if this artificially created digital imperfection is as imperfect as natural imperfection of an acoustic piano

To me, the question is, is it as luscious as the natural imperfection of an acoustic piano? (why yes, I do think aural dirt is luscious! 😂

iternabe I do have a question about technique: does anyone feel wearing shoes vs bare foot (with socks) makes a difference in your ability to control the subtleties with pedaling?

Years ago, I used to pedal barefoot but now I always wear shoes. If I'm at home, I have indoor shoes with a minimal sole. If I'm out and about, I choose the shoes carefully, always flats and definitely no exercise shoes with massive stack height for example.

Like @twocats I try to make sure I'm not using my toes, I want the ball of my foot to be on the fullness of the pedal. When I sit down at a new piano, one of the first things I do is make sure my foot knows where the pedal and that it's in the right position to hit the pedal where I want it to.

iternabe

I do have a question about technique: does anyone feel wearing shoes vs bare foot (with socks) makes a difference in your ability to control the subtleties with pedaling?

twocats

iternabe I do have a question about technique: does anyone feel wearing shoes vs bare foot (with socks) makes a difference in your ability to control the pedal with the nuance you are trying to achieve?

I think I just adjust! Sometimes I am wearing slippers with a sturdy sole and sometimes just socks, and both are fine. Someone in the Tonebase video (was it Garrick Ohlsson?) said to pedal with the ball of your foot so I've been trying to make sure I'm not pedaling with my toes.

iternabe

keystring I did not mean any problem with you using the word half-pedal. If my comment came through that way, I apologize. It rather a personal observation seeing the word being used loosely in online product description and also some forum discussions. There are a few pedals being marketed as capable of being "continous" and that to me is a much accurate description.

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