The subtleties of pedaling

twocats · 2025-04-15T15:26:27+00:00

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pe...

pseudonym58

Sorry if this has been mentioned previously on this thread, but the basic operation of the pedal (which is hardly ever used in just isolated spots) is an up-down motion, the minimum required to obtain the desired effect. Other than that, if it sounds good, it is good.

keystring

BartK The standard way to pedal legato is to change with the harmony change not delay and overlap the notes like she is doing. You can do that for effect but you have to use your ears or it will sound muddy. The default should still be to pedal simultaneously with the notes.

When she introduces the idea, she exaggerates. If you are a student first learning things, your ears are not very subtle, and you don't yet know what to listen for. So I'd do that, and maybe even exaggerate more to hear the overlap, and then pare back. When she actually plays later on, the sound is a clean pedal. She also explains how trying to lift and lower the foot with the hand creates unnecessary tension. The thing with legato pedal is that you do have a slight overlap or else you'd get staccato or portato (staccato meaning non-legato, not percussive effect) - how much of an overlap will you want?

I ran into this very thing last year with a piece. I'd always tried to pedal exactly with the hand, and one passage wouldn't come together. I learned to do exactly what she demonstrates. The "foot up when hand goes down" seems an oversimplification.

I'm familiar with Finch. I found hers better organized and easier to follow. I also did not see Finch addressing the legato type pedal.

twocats

keystring The thing with legato pedal is that you do have a slight overlap or else you'd get staccato or portato (staccato meaning non-legato, not percussive effect) - how much of an overlap will you want?

I agree. It's situational but sometimes if the pedal is too clean you lose the continuity of the music. I think both pianists had really good things to say about pedaling (I'll leave my opinions on overpedaling Mozart out of the conversation). In the end it really does come down to "pedal with your ears" 🙂

keystring

WieWaldi But for pedal up, you should be in sync with your hands / key down. I am not sure if she missed to tell it, or if she doesn't even know.

That's the simplified thing I learned originally. She refers to 'slow' later on - the pedal is lifted and put down again a titch after "key down" but you're talking of a fraction of a second. I only learned this a while ago and which I'd learned it sooner because I was hung up on exactly what you say.

WieWaldi

keystring That's the simplified thing I learned originally.

For me as a beginner, this simplified thing is actually the basics of legato pedaling. The thing to start with. And IMO this is something that is worth to be mentioned and also worth to be learned and practiced as 1_st step.

If the video is aimed towards intermediate pianists, that know already this kind of legato pedaling, then I don't understand why she starts with explaining the pure beginner stuff, of how a pedal moves the dampers, mechanically. This is actually step 0. Tell this a beginner to understand the function of a pedal. If she starts with this topic, it implies the video is for everyone, pedal beginners included.

My rant is, she didn't even mention the 1_st step, the simple version. She stepped directly into the advanced stuff after step 0. For a teaching video, this does not make too much sense. If the video would be adressed towards intermediates and advanced players only, then why tell them that the pedal lifts the dampers? (I really assume, those players know that already.)

twocats

MRC If you listen without looking, all you'll hear is that the first example is louder than the second. For the third example ("A mixture of slurs and things"), he uses more rubato and dynamic differences, which give more sense of phrasing, but if you're not looking you won't know if he is playing a particular note "staccato" or "legato".

I hear it in his examples without looking, too. I mean, I can't hear if it's a sharp staccato or if he played the notes firmly but separately but the separate notes vs intentional legato smoother line is clear as day to me. Because of his "rubato and dynamic differences", his musical intent is obvious to me.

Honestly I'm very confused why no one else hears it in his examples.

Edit: to make it clear, Graham Fitch and I are talking about musical intent. Not about whether scientifically if you play with the exact same dynamic etc whether anyone can tell the difference.

pianoloverus

twocats I hear it in his examples without looking, too. I mean, I can't hear if it's a sharp staccato or if he played the notes firmly but separately but the separate notes vs intentional legato smoother line is clear as day to me. Because of his "rubato and dynamic differences", his musical intent is obvious to me.

Honestly I'm very confused why no one else hears it in his examples.

Edit: to make it clear, Graham Fitch and I are talking about musical intent. Not about whether scientifically if you play with the exact same dynamic etc whether anyone can tell the difference.

If one plays at a different dynamic of course it will sound different but that's not a vaild test of the question.

keystring

twocats Honestly I'm very confused why no one else hears it in his examples.

This is going right back to the "staccato with pedal down" vs. "legato with pedal down" topic of before. Initially in that conversation, "staccato" was also a sharp expressive sound, which muddied the waters. Later it was turned into "non-legato" vs. "legato" with pedal down.

Here's the thing: We don't just have two elements - (1) timing of key press and release (2) timing of pedal down and release. There's a third - (3) the quality of that key press. Is it sharp, fast and loud? Is it slow and quiet? This third element will have a substantial effect on the results.

If you want to test whether legato vs. non-legato hand playing has an effect - (legato = the notes join up for a moment; non-legato = key 1 is released before key 2 goes down so as to create a gap), then you must make very certain that the descent of the keys (factor 3) is effected the same way both times. That is already hard because the motions in your hands will be different.

Another thing is that if you're a pianist, much of what you do will be automatic, and your ear and body will function as a unit. You may do things unawares. It has been pointed out to me that even for teachers, as they demonstrate a thing, they may not be doing what they think they are doing. In the examples of Finch, he is not trying to demonstrate this particular idea. He is playing musical examples, so factor 3 would come in play. One would hear a difference, but that is probably due to how the finger descend with what quality of impact, so to say.

I can play a passage with pedal down legato and non-legato, and make them sound identical. But I must be very careful that my fingers come down with the same speed and force. That is hard to do. the factor for difference of sound is this 3rd factor. Nothing else makes sense.

We've also veered off topic. 🙂

iternabe

twocats Edit: to make it clear, Graham Fitch and I are talking about musical intent. Not about whether scientifically if you play with the exact same dynamic etc whether anyone can tell the difference.

@twocats I now almost regret bringing up this topic again. Can I assure you that in my mind this is not about who is right or who is wrong. Rather, it's about understanding what's really happening when a music intent and execution does or does not produce an effect. I can only speak for myself, but I'd like to believe everyone involved in this discussion carries the same attitude, too.

So, does the underlying mechanism (and science) matter, if the pianist did something with intention, and the effect come out as expected? Maybe no, maybe yes. There are undoubted many many talented pianists who don't know a thing about piano action, yet they figured out how to make great music out of it. But, I believe understanding the mechanism and science does have the potential to give less talented pianist help, or even advantage.

My knowledge of piano playing is still laughably so little. I am better at my other hobby, auto racing. Data collection and analysis has elucidated many "why such technique works", and dispelled some myths that don't work or don't work as drivers imagined. And, studying data, understanding the mechanism has proven to be the most efficient way to improve most drivers performance.

Coming back on topic of the touch, tone, and held pedal. Although I don't hear the difference, I also do not doubt you hear it. But I want to know what exactly is causing the difference. Is it really the finger motion of staccato producing a different tone of sound (when pedal was down) the that of the finger motion of legato? Or is it just because when one plays staccato finger it just instinctively strike the key a tiny bit louder? But even if it's the latter (a little louder), the effect matches intent, why does the how matter? In my mind it matters because if the tone difference is indeed due to louder, then there could be other ways of finger motion that achieves the same. Can you play legato finger but just a little louder and end up getting the same effect as staccato? If so, then you now have two different ways to make the same result - would that be handy for certain situations?

Maybe to put it another way. Piano playing, and to a larger extent art, is very empirical. One learn through enormous amount of trial and error to build up a knowledge base of what action produces what effect. Science and engineering, on the other hand, can be extrapolatory because of the focus to find out the underlying mechanism and the logic behind it. The advantage then is one can predict something to work as expected even before first try. I have personally seen the combination of the two in racing and they do work beautifully.

keystring

WieWaldi For me as a beginner, this simplified thing is actually the basics of legato pedaling. The thing to start with. And IMO this is something that is worth to be mentioned and also worth to be learned and practiced as 1st step.

I have seen this taught as a first step, and a few variants, for beginners. The exploration itself, listening to the overlap and for the overlap, exaggerating it. That trains the ear to engage from the beginning. It is actually easier to exaggerate the overlap and then pull back, then to try to very precisely have foot and hand go in sync and maybe not listen as much because of the concentration.

WieWaldi My rant is, she didn't even mention the 1st step, the simple version. She stepped directly into the advanced stuff after step 0.

I see this as a first step.

twocats

WieWaldi why tell them that the pedal lifts the dampers? (I really assume, those players know that already.)

I grew up with an upright piano and I had no idea what was happening mechanically inside the piano until much later in my life. I think her intent was to have a pretty comprehensive overview of pedaling, which I think she did well. There should be something in the video for all levels, so just take the parts that are useful for you!

pianoloverus

iternabe You can read the conclusion yourself. My takeaway is when the intensity (i.e. dynamics, velocity, or volume) is fixed, the study subjects were only able to discern different touch because of finger-key noise. When finger-key noise is not heard, then there is no tonal difference between different touch.

This is reasonable although I think the difference in sound would be so slight as to be unnoticeable by most people most of the time. Very difficult to test correctly since it requires the dynamic to be exactly the same.

pianoloverus

WieWaldi Furthermore, she talks about the right hand pedal, but I know it is a foot pedal, and some say to pedal with the ears.

"Right hand" in this case means on the right side and not to play with the hand. Pedal with the ears means one should listen to the sound to see if it's correct.

Sophia

pianoloverus "Right hand" in this case means on the right side and not to play with the hand. Pedal with the ears means one should listen to the sound to see if it's correct.

Somehow I think you might have failed to notice the joke...

WieWaldi

twocats Amazing.
For this, it took me 5 minutes. I got this in the showroom before buying a piano.

twocats

pianoloverus If one plays at a different dynamic of course it will sound different but that's not a vaild test.

I have tried to be SO CLEAR, over and over that it's not a test. It's about expressing the musical intent.

I feel extremely validated hearing Graham Fitch say exactly what I've been trying to say, and to demonstrate exactly what I was trying to demonstrate. If you can't hear it... well, I guess you just can't hear it and there isn't any point in arguing about it.

(I've been told that I have a very good ear when it comes to musical subtleties. My friend who used to be a professional orchestra musician says I notice far more details in the playing than he does when we go to chamber music concerts together.)

pianoloverus

twocats I have tried to be SO CLEAR, over and over that it's not a test. It's about expressing the musical intent.

I feel extremely validated hearing Graham Fitch say exactly what I've been trying to say, and to demonstrate exactly what I was trying to demonstrate. If you can't hear it... well, I guess you just can't hear it and there isn't any point in arguing about it.

My hearing is fine. We are discussing different things. If Fitch claims that staccato with pedal sounds different from legato with pedal than, whatever you call his demonstration, if he plays at different dynamics, he doesn't show that. And I'm certainly not the only one on this thread to say so. One person who said exactly what I'm saying is MRC who is a professional pianist.

twocats

WieWaldi For this, it took me 5 minutes. I got this in the showroom before buying a piano.

I think for many people like myself who started as a kid, your teacher says "when you use this pedal it has this effect" and that's it. To many people, a piano is a black box and they have no idea how it works. I think people who hang out on piano forums are already preselected to be more interested 🙂 So I don't think she's wrong in spending a minute on this very basic "what does the damper pedal actually do" in her video.

BartK

iternabe Can you play legato finger but just a little louder and end up getting the same effect as staccato? If so, then you now have two different ways to make the same result - would that be handy for certain situations?

My personal view is that technically yes, you could, BUT...

If suddenly you have to play a different piano in a different room that requires a different amount of pedal then your fingers will have to adjust and it may not come out the same way as you intended, especially if your interpretation is dependent on doing physical gestures a certain way. If, on the other hand, you train your fingers to play the staccato articulation then, when you have to adjust the amount of pedal, that is the only thing you need to change.

Objectively, the piano does not differentiate touch. But I can certainly believe that doing physical gestures a certain way can help you achieve your desired interpretation.

twocats

iternabe Coming back on topic of the touch, tone, and held pedal. Although I don't hear the difference, I also do not doubt you hear it. But I want to know what exactly is causing the difference.

Oh boy, "exactly" is quite a lot to ask!! 😂 But I'll do my best to explain what I think.

I think a lot (all????) of it comes down to: you have to be able hear the intended phrasing to play the phrasing. I can't tell you what is happening in my fingers exactly because if you think about it, there are way too many variables to describe (3 dimensions of a finger position transitioning to a new position, times many fingers, plus taking into account precise force, velocity, timing-- and music is never just one isolated note, it all has to be put together as a whole)-- but if I have the musical intention I can make it happen in the music because I have enough experience in paying attention to the tone that I want to produce and what I have to do to get that. And sometimes this is a lot of trial and error, you know how pianists have these beautiful movements where it's like their hand is floating down before the key is struck? That's not just for show, the very subtle ways in which the hand/finger moves will change the "color" of the tone. And maybe one note by itself isolated will sound pretty much the same but a series of notes struck in a certain way can produce an intended phrasing (or color, emotion, imagery). In the Bach I'm working on, there's an inner voice where I'm trying to bring it out in just the right way (dynamic, force, duration) and it's been trial and error to figure out what sounds the best. Also with regard to pedal, I think I've been doing some "fractional pedaling" for a long time just from listening and intuition, but it's only recently that I've been trying to really pay attention and using that to improve my playing (e.g. Chopin Fantasie-Impromptu: using pedal throughout but not having a totally muddy melody line).

But also, sometimes a pianist just has "their touch". I can't tell you what Kate Liu is doing to play like she does and probably even she couldn't tell you in technical terms, but she has a very unique sound and it's so very wonderful and special. I come back to this performance a lot:

I also believe that some musicality can be taught but some of it comes down to having the ability to internalize it well (what a lot of people would call "innate musicality"). Part of it comes from growing up listening to good recordings or having the right teachers so that you know what appropriate phrasing should sound like, but at some point it has to become a part of you. There are many aspiring concert pianists out there who are technically brilliant but who play like robots, or they just don't understand the music. Dances or Polonaises have a certain rhythm and style or lilt to them that you have to internalize and understand, or just won't sound right.

I recently went to a piano masterclass taught by a brilliant South Korean concert pianist who teaches at Peabody. When she demonstrated, her tone was stunningly beautiful, but she expected the students to be able to repeat what she was doing without any technical direction at all. It was so frustrating both for the students and for the audience that my friend and I left halfway through, she was just repeating her phrase and making the students repeat theirs. I had many opinions on what I would have told those students to better achieve the sound that she was demonstrating! But I think at a conservatory the students are at a level where she just demonstrates and they know what they have to do with their hands to at least get close to reproducing her sound.

Hopefully at least you understand some of what I'm trying to convey 🙂

twocats

iternabe maybe I got way off track on my thoughts on musicality and tone but also your question is way too big to answer helpfully for your development as a pianist! If you had a specific phrase of music and you asked me what my musical intention would be for it and how that is translated technically, maybe I could try breaking that down. And you're welcome to ask that (maybe on a different thread or private message) 🙂 But I really can't give you any answers with regards to general discussion, because it's much too broad, and at this point what I do with my hands is from experience that has turned into intuition.

WieWaldi

twocats Then why didn't she talk about the basic technique of legato pedaling at all?

twocats

WieWaldi Then why didn't she talk about the basic technique of legato pedaling at all?

This is not a video meant for beginners, I'm not sure why you're objecting to her explaining how dampers work and assuming that only beginners would need to know that. There are a lot of students (especially children) who play well but for whom a piano is mostly a black box where you strike the key and a sound comes out.

twocats

pianoloverus We are discussing different things. If Fitch claims that staccato with pedal sounds different from legato with pedal than, whatever you call his demonstration, if he plays at different dynamics, he doesn't show that.

You don't understand what Fitch is conveying at all if you keep referring to "different dynamics" being an issue in his demonstration.

That's fine, let's drop it, at least I know that it's not my poor explanation or example that's the issue! We're just talking about completely different things.

pianoloverus

Sophia I don't know what iternabe's native language is so I took his post at face value.

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