The subtleties of pedaling

twocats · 2025-04-15T15:26:27+00:00

I really like this performance of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and was trying to figure out how Dmitry Shishkin has so much clarity in his right hand while pe...

twocats

@pianoloverus maybe this will clarify. You and @MRC indicated that you heard "differences in speed, in dynamics, in accentuation, in rubato". I'm saying that it's deliberate. I'm saying that even if the composer indicates that you should create a connection between the notes using pedal while also indicating non-legato or staccato, you should hear a difference using phrasing and articulation to create a different musical intention.

pianoloverus

twocats maybe this will clarify. You and @MRC indicated that you heard "differences in speed, in dynamics, in accentuation, in rubato". I'm saying that it's deliberate.

If you change any of those deliberately or not deliberately then you can't claim that playing legato with pedal or staccato with pedal is the cause of any change in the sound. But what I think you're saying is that when the composer indicates the staccato and pedal simultaneously that means you should interpret the music in a certain way and play it differently than if it was marked without the staccatos. I think that's reasonable but it's not the same thing as saying any difference in sound is caused by playing staccato with pedal versus Legato with pedal.

MRC

twocats I can't argue with your experience but wondering if we're hearing different things due to the devices? I hear a huge difference in the articulation.

I listened with a good hifi system: I don't think the device is in question. I know that visual clues will affect the way we hear. I also know that tactile clues will affect this even more: the fact that you felt the difference while playing those examples would undoubtedly affect the way you heard them as you played, and could continue to affect the way you hear the examples when you watch the video.

I know you didn't intend this as a test, but I would contend this: if you used that particular example as a test, asking people to listen to it with no visual clues, they wouldn't be able to discern when you were lifting your hands between notes and when you weren't.

twocats When I see a legato line it indicates that I should shape and phrase it. If it's staccato the composer is trying to tell me that they want it crisp and mechanical! The result should sound different.

Certainly, in order to give the listener the sensation of legato, shaping and phrasing are important. Here's a question, though: if the pedal is down, does playing the passage with a joined finger technique help to create the required musical effect? I say: not necessarily. In some cases it may be detrimental (for instance if joining the notes with the fingers requires stretching or twisting the hand).

For me, a true legato is this: a musical phrase where each note grows or dies seamlessly into the next one. This is only actually possible if the phrase is sung, or played on a melodic instrument such as a violin or oboe. But the best pianists can create a convincing illusion for the listener.

twocats

MRC Here's a question, though: if the pedal is down, does playing the passage with a joined finger technique help to create the required musical effect? I say: not necessarily.

I agree with you.

MRC they wouldn't be able to discern when you were lifting your hands between notes and when you weren't.

But can you hear the difference in musical intention, despite pedal being on the whole time? That's the real question I want to address, vs whether you can tell if I'm lifting my hands or not.

twocats

twocats here's the demo I promised showing the difference between legato with pedal and non-legato with pedal

I changed the title of the video to "Demo legato and non-legato phrasing while using pedal", hopefully that's more clear.

The context of the discussion before was musical intentions of the composer, and what to do when they've indicated non-legato but also pedal use.

keystring

twocats I changed the title of the video to "Demo legato and non-legato phrasing while using pedal", hopefully that's more clear.

The context of the discussion before was musical intentions of the composer, and what to do when they've indicated non-legato but also pedal use.

That makes it clear. The problem was that we also had a discussion a few days before, and I tied the demo to that discussion. There is always the problematic of "how much to write" to make something clear. I think it is now clear to everyone. Thanks on behalf of everyone for your effort!

twocats

keystring I think it is now clear to everyone.

Yay, thank you 🙂

twocats

pianoloverus But I think you're saying is that when the composer indicates the staccato and pedal simultaneously that means you should interpret the music in a certain way and play it differently than if it was marked without the staccatos.

Yes. This is what I was trying to demonstrate.

pianoloverus it's not the same thing as saying any difference in sound is caused by playing staccato with pedal versus Legato with pedal.

If I said this, it was not my intent, I was talking about the varied musical expression that you should achieve when it's marked differently, even if you are using pedal.

iternabe

I just watched this and think it’s one of the best video on pedaling I have seen on YouTube. She first explained the basics. The great stuff starts when she begin to demonstrate with various pieces.

WieWaldi

iternabe I watched the video, and I don't think it is a good video about pedaling. Would definitely not recommend to someone who is a pedal-beginner.
The video is very long, and there is lot of information. But she is missing out the most important basic information. Maybe this is already too obvious for her to explain and she didn't. But in this video she started with they very basics - even how the pedal works mechanically. So, IMO she missed to tell it. She talked about syncopated pedaling. For pedal down - okay it works. But for pedal up, you should be in sync with your hands / key down. I am not sure if she missed to tell it, or if she doesn't even know.

In her advanced examples, when she was talking about the pedal while playing, she ended up too mushy in some cases. At least for my liking.

Furthermore, she talks about the right hand pedal, but I know it is a foot pedal, and some say to pedal with the ears.

pianoloverus

I've only watched half but I think her comments are excellent.

BartK

Uh.. I didn't really like her interpretation choices and don't agree with some of what she said. The standard way to pedal legato is to change with the harmony change not delay and overlap the notes like she is doing. You can do that for effect but you have to use your ears or it will sound muddy. The default should still be to pedal simultaneously with the notes.

I much prefer Graham Fitch's more concise explanations. He says all that and more, and his playing is much better. 😉

twocats

BartK thanks for sharing, great videos!

@iternabe in the Graham Fitch 2nd video around 11:30 he shows examples of staccato and legato with pedal. Hopefully it's much clearer than my previous demonstrated examples which apparently weren't clear enough 😆

keystring

BartK The standard way to pedal legato is to change with the harmony change not delay and overlap the notes like she is doing. You can do that for effect but you have to use your ears or it will sound muddy. The default should still be to pedal simultaneously with the notes.

When she introduces the idea, she exaggerates. If you are a student first learning things, your ears are not very subtle, and you don't yet know what to listen for. So I'd do that, and maybe even exaggerate more to hear the overlap, and then pare back. When she actually plays later on, the sound is a clean pedal. She also explains how trying to lift and lower the foot with the hand creates unnecessary tension. The thing with legato pedal is that you do have a slight overlap or else you'd get staccato or portato (staccato meaning non-legato, not percussive effect) - how much of an overlap will you want?

I ran into this very thing last year with a piece. I'd always tried to pedal exactly with the hand, and one passage wouldn't come together. I learned to do exactly what she demonstrates. The "foot up when hand goes down" seems an oversimplification.

I'm familiar with Finch. I found hers better organized and easier to follow. I also did not see Finch addressing the legato type pedal.

MRC

twocats in the Graham Fitch 2nd video around 11:30 he shows examples of staccato and legato with pedal. Hopefully it's much clearer than my previous demonstrated examples which apparently weren't clear enough

He first plays "staccato". then he plays "legato". If you listen without looking, all you'll hear is that the first example is louder than the second. For the third example ("A mixture of slurs and things"), he uses more rubato and dynamic differences, which give more sense of phrasing, but if you're not looking you won't know if he is playing a particular note "staccato" or "legato". None of this supports his assertion that "Touch will show up in the pedal"

pianoloverus

MRC I agree. If one plays with a different dynamic, the comparison is irrelevant. I think those who think the staccato and legato sound different don't offer any reason why this would be true. And I don't think there is one.

twocats

MRC If you listen without looking, all you'll hear is that the first example is louder than the second. For the third example ("A mixture of slurs and things"), he uses more rubato and dynamic differences, which give more sense of phrasing, but if you're not looking you won't know if he is playing a particular note "staccato" or "legato".

I hear it in his examples without looking, too. I mean, I can't hear if it's a sharp staccato or if he played the notes firmly but separately but the separate notes vs intentional legato smoother line is clear as day to me. Because of his "rubato and dynamic differences", his musical intent is obvious to me.

Honestly I'm very confused why no one else hears it in his examples.

Edit: to make it clear, Graham Fitch and I are talking about musical intent. Not about whether scientifically if you play with the exact same dynamic etc whether anyone can tell the difference.

iternabe

Ah, we are back at the "does staccato and legato sound different if sustain pedal has been held down" discussion again. I kind of want to let it rest, thinking this might be side tracking the original topic. But if we are going to continue, I did find more information that could bring more insight.

Here is a research paper published in Porceedings of the International Symposium on Musical Acoustics titled "Once again: The perception of piano touch and tone. Can touch audibly change piano sound independently of intensity?".

You can read the conclusion yourself. My takeaway is when the intensity (i.e. dynamics, velocity, or volume) is fixed, the study subjects were only able to discern different touch because of finger-key noise. When finger-key noise is not heard, then there is no tonal difference between different touch.

This is interesting because it can mean everybody is right. @twocats is hearing clear difference between staccato and legato as she plays them on her piano. @MRC, @pianoloverus, and I are also not hearing the difference from the recording (which most likely did not capture finger-key noise).

Then, this leads to a more relevant question: as an pianist, you are trying to make an effect and convey it to your audience, but can the audience hear what you hear, or perceive what you perceive? For audience who is going to listen to your performance on recording, what is going to get lost? For live audience, does the one sit in the back hear less than those in the front row? Can visual change audience perception - for example even no finger-key noise reach them to hint the touch, maybe seeing the pianist's finger movement do impart richer perception of the tone?

pianoloverus

iternabe You can read the conclusion yourself. My takeaway is when the intensity (i.e. dynamics, velocity, or volume) is fixed, the study subjects were only able to discern different touch because of finger-key noise. When finger-key noise is not heard, then there is no tonal difference between different touch.

This is reasonable although I think the difference in sound would be so slight as to be unnoticeable by most people most of the time. Very difficult to test correctly since it requires the dynamic to be exactly the same.

iternabe

I would also like to share this paragraph on tone quality from György Sándor's book "On Piano Playing: Motion, Sound and Expression". From a great pianist, addressing both the science and the artistry.

While everyone agrees about the piano’s capability to vary dynamics from triple piano to triple forte, its ability to vary tone color is a topic that is quite controversial. It has been “proven” by some “experts” that it is only the volume of the sound that can be altered and that altering tone quality is purely a matter of imagination. This may be true in playing one single note, but a series of sounds in sequence is quite another matter: touch and tone quality are most personal things, and they are clearly recognizable. Even if the are hard to define, the difference in tone qualities among certain artists undoubtedly exists and is not imagined. Perhaps it is caused by the rate of acceleration of the speed of the hammers; perhaps it is the way the damper stops the sound when it descends on the strings; perhaps it is the spacing of notes, the agogic qualities of the playing, or the flexibility of metric units -- these and many other factors may influence tone quality. But differences do exist! There can be no argument that the piano sounds different when Horowitz, Richter, Michelangeli, or Argerich play it. Also of great importance is the way the particular instrument we are playing responds to touch. There are many pianos that have a rather pleasant but “ready-made” sound. They respond only to quantitative changes of dynamics and not to different shadings of touch, to the reflexes of the performer. It would be most beneficial if all pianists could all their practicing, not just performing, on instruments that were sensitive enough to respond to shadings of color as well as to dynamics.

keystring

WieWaldi But for pedal up, you should be in sync with your hands / key down. I am not sure if she missed to tell it, or if she doesn't even know.

That's the simplified thing I learned originally. She refers to 'slow' later on - the pedal is lifted and put down again a titch after "key down" but you're talking of a fraction of a second. I only learned this a while ago and which I'd learned it sooner because I was hung up on exactly what you say.

pianoloverus

WieWaldi Furthermore, she talks about the right hand pedal, but I know it is a foot pedal, and some say to pedal with the ears.

"Right hand" in this case means on the right side and not to play with the hand. Pedal with the ears means one should listen to the sound to see if it's correct.

pseudonym58

Sorry if this has been mentioned previously on this thread, but the basic operation of the pedal (which is hardly ever used in just isolated spots) is an up-down motion, the minimum required to obtain the desired effect. Other than that, if it sounds good, it is good.

twocats

keystring The thing with legato pedal is that you do have a slight overlap or else you'd get staccato or portato (staccato meaning non-legato, not percussive effect) - how much of an overlap will you want?

I agree. It's situational but sometimes if the pedal is too clean you lose the continuity of the music. I think both pianists had really good things to say about pedaling (I'll leave my opinions on overpedaling Mozart out of the conversation). In the end it really does come down to "pedal with your ears" 🙂

WieWaldi

keystring That's the simplified thing I learned originally.

For me as a beginner, this simplified thing is actually the basics of legato pedaling. The thing to start with. And IMO this is something that is worth to be mentioned and also worth to be learned and practiced as 1_st step.

If the video is aimed towards intermediate pianists, that know already this kind of legato pedaling, then I don't understand why she starts with explaining the pure beginner stuff, of how a pedal moves the dampers, mechanically. This is actually step 0. Tell this a beginner to understand the function of a pedal. If she starts with this topic, it implies the video is for everyone, pedal beginners included.

My rant is, she didn't even mention the 1_st step, the simple version. She stepped directly into the advanced stuff after step 0. For a teaching video, this does not make too much sense. If the video would be adressed towards intermediates and advanced players only, then why tell them that the pedal lifts the dampers? (I really assume, those players know that already.)

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