My Struggles with the First Ballade

BartK · 2025-04-10T14:18:40+00:00

Disclaimer: I was hesitant to write this topic because I know that some people will jump on the opportunity to tell me that the piece is too hard for me. I a...

danno858

pianoloverus Alan Rusbridger

pianoloverus

This is the book. Play it again: An amateur against the impossible

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=alan+rusbridger&crid=3DPCMMKPL8ESX&sprefix=alan+rusb%2Caps%2C95&ref=nb_sb_ss_fb_1_9_ts-doa-p

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus btw thanks for this, I don’t think I’ve heard of this book, but I just bought ($3 on kindle!)

BartK

pianoloverus
Yes, Alan Rusbriger's "Play it Again". I have read it and found it quite interesting. The interviews with various pianists and his annotated score provide some insights about the piece and the other parts, which are mostly about his work as the editor in chief of the Guardian, are pretty entertaining.

twocats

BartK Sorry, I didn't specify exactly what I mean. The jump down is fine as I'm used to jumping to bass notes with 5 (it didn't occur to me to use 3) but somehow I have a hard time hitting the upper LH chords. I often miss one of the notes. Especially at m. 140 where I'm using 1-4-5 on the second chord.

Bar 138 and 139: 1-4-5, 1-2-5
Bar 140: 1-3-5, 1-4-5
Bar 141: 1-3-5 (but slide thumb), 1-3-5

I think it's one of those things where you have to just get it into your finger memory so that it's automatic. Maybe give it a few weeks of break and come back to it?

I just saw for the bottom notes I sometimes do 5 and not 3 when I play it faster.

BartK

twocats
OK, I'm using the same fingering. I'll continue working on it for a while and then give it a break when I move on to another section.

MRC

twocats Bar 138 and 139: 1-4-5, 1-2-5
Bar 140: 1-3-5, 1-4-5
Bar 141: 1-3-5 (but slide thumb), 1-3-5

Here are my fingerings:
Bar 138 and 139: 1-3-5, 1-2-5
Bar 140: 1-2-5, 1-4-5
Bar 141: 1-3-5, 1-3-5
I play all the bass notes with 5

I find that the position of my upper body is very important. For bars 138 and 139, my torso is leaning to the right, most of the weight being on the right butt cheek. The shoulders don't lean: they stay parallel to the keyboard. In the middle of bar 140, I start moving back to the centre; this movement continues in bar 141. Then at the beginning of bar 142, I lean to the right again and follow the same pattern through the next 4 bars.

The essential thing is to be in a position that's comfortable for the left hand off-beats. The angle of the forearm to the keyboard doesn't make such a difference for the right hand figuration, and it's no problem reaching out for the staccato bass notes, but your left hand needs to be well aligned with the chords.

Try practising like this:

Left hand alone, without the staccato bass notes. You only play beats 2, 3, 5 and 6. Make sure that you are always in a good position to attack each chord straight on. Experiment where your upper body should be to make those chords as easy as possible.
Add the right hand, but still don't play the bass notes. Make sure your body position stays as it was when you played only the left hand. This should be easy. If it isn't, you need to practice the right hand more.
Finally, add the bass notes. You shouldn't be looking at your right hand at all: only look where the left hand is going.

BartK

MRC
Thanks! I'll try your tips.

TheBoringPianist

MRC Here are my fingerings:
Bar 138 and 139: 1-3-5, 1-2-5
Bar 140: 1-2-5, 1-4-5
Bar 141: 1-3-5, 1-3-5
I play all the bass notes with 5

My fingering is pretty similar, except in bar 140 I sometimes still find myself going with 1-3-5 instead of 1-4-5 (probably out of habit, and symptomatic of an underdeveloped 4th finger). I actually notice that for the bottom note jumps I'm often hitting it with a loosely grouped combo of 4-5. That's the nice part about black note jumps—the key is small but it sticks up so you can just increase the surface area of your hand that's available to hit it!

@BartK Good luck with the Ballade! I might want to revisit it at one point, I worked on it about two years ago when I was really getting back into piano via meetups and thought it was pretty decent at the time but I cringe now when listening to my old recordings.

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus still remember my teacher saying "That was very boring" after I played the introduction to him for the first time.

OMG. This could go in that thread I started, “teachers say the darnedst things.”

https://forum.pianotell.com/d/1712-teachers-say-the-darndest-things-just-for-fun

pianoloverus

ShiroKuro Ha ha I already put it there a while ago.

twocats

TheBoringPianist My fingering is pretty similar

I'm guessing my fingerings are better for my small hands, and I'm assuming that you, MRC, and Bart have bigger hands than me (octaves are fine, 9th in certain conditions, 10th is out of the question). Hopefully he's able to figure out something that works better!

Seeker

BartK The jump down is fine as I'm used to jumping to bass notes with 5 (it didn't occur to me to use 3) but somehow I have a hard time hitting the upper LH chords.

I'd be happy to do a ZOOM session with you if you think that would help. Meanwhile, practicing JUST THE LEFT HAND in the problem section using a technique I learned from Peter Feuchtwanger might help. Make the leap down to your THUMB, upon impact with the bass note RELEASE all but hold down pressure on the thumb and simultaneously rotate your wrist DOWN and OUT, i.e., clockwise, and leap to the next notes.

What does this do for you?

It prevents you from reaching for the bottom note
It keeps you from tensing up, because your reaching for the bottom note
In my experience, it absolutely increases the accuracy of the leap

If you try it, please let us know how it worked, or didn't for you.

And, yes, I've played the Ballade. Can't remember, but I think it was for my Junior Recital at Boston University School for the Arts about 100 years ago😆, and it was certainly more work for me when I was a lot less technically savvy than I am now.

PianogrlNW

BartK I also tried learning this Ballade a few years ago. I think I spent 4 or 5 months on it and then faced the fact that I didn’t have the chops to play it. I think it’s OK, even sometimes a good idea, to take on pieces that are technically very challenging and realizing you will never be able to play them very well. I felt like I learned something from working on the Ballade. But I decided that, ultimately, it’s much more satisfying to put that same effort into a piece that I will be able to play well. I didn’t find the waltz part to be difficult, but the Coda - forget it!

I read the Rusbridger book and managed to find a recording of his performance, which wasn’t very good. It’s really a very personal decision about how you want to spend your time at the keyboard.

pianoloverus

PianogrlNW I read the Rusbridger book and managed to find a recording of his performance, which wasn’t very good.

I certainly agree with your assessment of his playing.

Nightowl

I just watched Rousseau play this on YT - it's mind blowingly complex, I can't imagine how many years of experience a person would need before being ready to tackle this piece. Meanwhile, back on planet earth I'm still struggling to crack Chopin's Tristesse Etude, which for me is a stretch piece that contains a few measures that I'm not sure I'll ever crack. So, although we're at very different stages in our piano journey, I identify with your struggle to crack a Chopin piece.

Chopin seems to have been some kind of superhuman, almost god-like in his mastery of the piano - just in a class of his own. From what I gather, he had a considerable fan club during his lifetime, which is no surprise - it must have been overwhelming for people when they witnessed him playing his beautiful compositions. Added to his piano skills he had rather a beautiful face (which there are accurate carvings of, partly due to the fact that shortly after his death a mould was taken of his face, as was the custom back then in elite society).

TheBoringPianist

Nightowl I'm still struggling to crack Chopin's Tristesse Etude, which for me is a stretch piece that contains a few measures that I'm not sure I'll ever crack.

fwiw I personally find those few measures (I'm assuming you're talking about those sixths at the end of the middle section) more awkward and error-prone for my hands than any single passage in Ballade No. 1.

pianoloverus

TheBoringPianist I'm still struggling to crack Chopin's Tristesse Etude, which for me is a stretch piece that contains a few measures that I'm not sure I'll ever crack.

fwiw I personally find those few measures (I'm assuming you're talking about those sixths at the end of the middle section) more awkward and error-prone for my hands than any single passage in Ballade No. 1.

I think it's possible to play those measures with the sixths slower than many pros play them and still have them sound appropriate and effective.

Nightowl

TheBoringPianist Thanks for sharing your experience - I think that section is probably the part that many players struggle with. For me it's the absolute heart of the piece and I want to do it justice.

pianoloverus Yes, I agree, it would sound fine played slightly slower, as long as it's played fluidly, without awkward pauses. I'll keep working on those measures in isolation to improve them.

@BartK Sorry to somewhat derail your thread. From what I've seen of your recital pieces, I'm sure you'll nail this piece eventually. I expect you can already play the first quarter of the piece very nicely, which is the part I like. I don't enjoy the parts where it gets frantic (to my ears it's just a cacophony of noise, not my thing at all) but I'm in awe of anyone who can play such complex pieces.

pianoloverus

Nightowl I don't enjoy the parts where it gets frantic (to my ears it's just a cahcophony of noise, not my thing at all) but I'm in awe of anyone who can play such complex pieces.

I strongly agree with your feeling about the part in sixths and similarly the passages in contrary motion preceding . One of those bizarre passages in Chopin that makes little sense to me. Not Chopin at his best IMO.

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