Disclaimer: I was hesitant to write this topic because I know that some people will jump on the opportunity to tell me that the piece is too hard for me. I already know it's too hard for me but I just love it so much I had to learn it. It's not going to stop me so if that's all you have to say then please don't say it.

So, I started learning the Chopin 1st Ballade around November and knowing how famously difficult it is I gave myself a rough 1 year target to get there. It's more of a long-term project than something I am keen on accomplishing in a set time.

I started with the coda of course. The coda is extremely difficult but I managed to learn it and I can play it around 2/3rds tempo which isn't too bad. I'm probably not going to go full tempo at this time (or ever 😉) but I will be happy if I can play the rest of the piece near tempo and play the coda a bit slower.

After working for a little over 3 months on the coda I started work on other parts of the piece. I learned the first agitato section up to the beginning of the second theme and then the big chordal climax of the second theme, which I thought was much easier than what I expected. Even the trills on the octaves that everyone complains about weren't that difficult.

Then, I went on to learn the waltz and I hit a wall. I did not expect the waltz to be so hard. I mean, I played other waltzes by Chopin and they were never that difficult. This waltz is different. The LH leaps are weird. The runs are weird. The RH melody jumps around as the LH also jumps around. There is always some surprise lurking around to make things difficult. And the tempo is a killer too even if my fingers wouldn't keep missing the right keys. At this point I have been practicing this 2.5-page section for about a month and a half and it feels like my progress is stalled. I keep practicing the same small chunks at the same glacially slow tempo and not improving much. I'm not even thinking of putting the whole section together yet.

I don't know if many people here have learned this piece and have advice about it. I guess, I'm looking more for commiseration than advice. I just wanted to vent my frustration with this piece. I'll probably get there eventually just like the coda but boy this is harder than I expected (and I expected it to be really hard).

    If it's commiseration you want, I can give it! I tried to learn the ballad for about half a year before giving up. It's just too long, and I couldn't get to a piano consistently enough. When I would work on a new section, the old sections would become rusty quickly. It was like trying to fill up a leaky bathtub. I didn't feel much regret about giving up, since I felt like Don Quixote attacking windmills. Until I have more free time, I have to stick to short pieces.

      I think the coda can sound quite good and effective even when not played at the supersonic speed that some virtuosos achieve.

        rsl12 It was like trying to fill up a leaky bathtub.

        That's a great way to describe some of those piano struggles!!

          pianoloverus I think the coda can sound quite good and effective even when not played at the supersonic speed that some virtuosos achieve.

          Thanks! That's a bit reassuring although it still needs some work to be convincing. I would prefer to play it slower as a matter of choice rather than because I can't play it faster, but I'll take it anyway.

            BartK I guess, I'm looking more for commiseration than advice.

            I, too, got obsessed with this piece (it's actually why I upgraded to a grand piano in 2014) and worked extremely hard on it for a year and a half. Each page seemed to take me months to learn! I finally moved on because the Coda just wasn't consistently solid and I think I maxed out my progress at the time. For the waltz section, it's not a normal waltz and can't be compared with any you've ever played, it's sort-of this lopsided circus waltz and your left hand has to move fast and automatically land in the right place. And there's that horrible awkward weird "run" (not a run, a running sequence?) that you just have to memorize to play. At the time I got a teacher to help me with the technical issues in this Ballade and she grouped notes in that "run" which helped a ton, if you'd like a photo of that section. I think it's the section that eventually leads into the waltz.

            I'm slowly coming back to this piece like 8 years later and I think I'll actually be able to play it now after I put a lot more work into it. It is incredibly difficult!

                twocats For the waltz section, it's not a normal waltz and can't be compared with any you've ever played, it's sort-of this lopsided circus waltz

                That's a good description!

                twocats your left hand has to move fast and automatically land in the right place

                My problem is always missing the black keys when I land. What fingering do you use for the LH jumps?

                twocats And there's that horrible awkward weird "run" (not a run, a running sequence?) that you just have to memorize to play. At the time I got a teacher to help me with the technical issues in this Ballade and she grouped notes in that "run" which helped a ton, if you'd like a photo of that section. I think it's the section that eventually leads into the waltz.

                That part is weird but not too bad. I broke it down into groups of notes like you're saying and I got it down. What trips me up more is the up and down movement of the melody, and then the chromatic runs, and then the alternating notes after that. There are some patterns but there are always these small changes to the pattern where he does something different and it messes me up.

                        BartK we seem to have opposite skillsets!

                        BartK My problem is always missing the black keys when I land. What fingering do you use for the LH jumps?

                        I just tried the waltz and I'm using my 3rd finger for all of the bottom notes. I noticed that my elbow is always close to me, arm/hand fairly straight but at an angle which allows two things: the whole arm is not having to move much (only the lower part, not above the elbow), and because of the angle I have so much more finger area to hit the key.

                        I hope that helps! I rarely miss those notes but apparently I'm good at left hand jumps. I'm currently learning the second Impromptu and I think the reason it's "difficult" (aside from musically) must be the section with the left hand octave jumps, which luckily are easy for me! It's both satisfying not to have to struggle to make beautiful music, but also satisfying to struggle and overcome through time and patience (and sheer obstinance?) to be able to make beautiful music 😂

                              Disclaimer: I have not tried to learn this piece. My suggestion would be to give some thought to scheduling a few lessons with a teacher. Sometimes a fresh set of eyes (and someone who has previously learned the piece) is what the doctor ordered.

                                Stub true! I hadn't had lessons for a decade when I tried to learn this but a teacher helped me greatly with some technical things (although I disagreed with a lot of her musical suggestions).

                                  twocats I just tried the waltz and I'm using my 3rd finger for all of the bottom notes. I noticed that my elbow is always close to me, arm/hand fairly straight but at an angle which allows two things: the whole arm is not having to move much (only the lower part, not above the elbow), and because of the angle I have so much more finger area to hit the key.

                                  Sorry, I didn't specify exactly what I mean. The jump down is fine as I'm used to jumping to bass notes with 5 (it didn't occur to me to use 3) but somehow I have a hard time hitting the upper LH chords. I often miss one of the notes. Especially at m. 140 where I'm using 1-4-5 on the second chord.

                                  twocats It's both satisfying not to have to struggle to make beautiful music, but also satisfying to struggle and overcome through time and patience (and sheer obstinance?) to be able to make beautiful music 😂

                                  I know what you mean. I recently picked up Clair de lune after 5 years and I can't believe how easy it is. My reading and my technique are light years from where they were then but I remember struggling with that piece and now it's like a pleasant dip in the pool after the intense workout of the Ballade. 😂

                                        There was a book written by an amateur pianist who is a journalist about his attempt to learn the first ballade. I can't recall the name of the book but hopefully someone can post it. Although I don't recommend the book particularly, it might be useful to someone learning this piece because the author includes a huge number of suggestions and hints his teacher (with whom he took multiple lessons per week to try and learn the piece) gave him. I studied the piece many decades ago and still remember my teacher saying "That was very boring" after I played the introduction to him for the first time.

                                          pianoloverus
                                          Yes, Alan Rusbriger's "Play it Again". I have read it and found it quite interesting. The interviews with various pianists and his annotated score provide some insights about the piece and the other parts, which are mostly about his work as the editor in chief of the Guardian, are pretty entertaining.

                                            BartK Sorry, I didn't specify exactly what I mean. The jump down is fine as I'm used to jumping to bass notes with 5 (it didn't occur to me to use 3) but somehow I have a hard time hitting the upper LH chords. I often miss one of the notes. Especially at m. 140 where I'm using 1-4-5 on the second chord.

                                            Bar 138 and 139: 1-4-5, 1-2-5
                                            Bar 140: 1-3-5, 1-4-5
                                            Bar 141: 1-3-5 (but slide thumb), 1-3-5

                                            I think it's one of those things where you have to just get it into your finger memory so that it's automatic. Maybe give it a few weeks of break and come back to it?

                                            I just saw for the bottom notes I sometimes do 5 and not 3 when I play it faster.

                                                twocats
                                                OK, I'm using the same fingering. I'll continue working on it for a while and then give it a break when I move on to another section.

                                                  twocats Bar 138 and 139: 1-4-5, 1-2-5
                                                  Bar 140: 1-3-5, 1-4-5
                                                  Bar 141: 1-3-5 (but slide thumb), 1-3-5

                                                  Here are my fingerings:
                                                  Bar 138 and 139: 1-3-5, 1-2-5
                                                  Bar 140: 1-2-5, 1-4-5
                                                  Bar 141: 1-3-5, 1-3-5
                                                  I play all the bass notes with 5

                                                  I find that the position of my upper body is very important. For bars 138 and 139, my torso is leaning to the right, most of the weight being on the right butt cheek. The shoulders don't lean: they stay parallel to the keyboard. In the middle of bar 140, I start moving back to the centre; this movement continues in bar 141. Then at the beginning of bar 142, I lean to the right again and follow the same pattern through the next 4 bars.

                                                  The essential thing is to be in a position that's comfortable for the left hand off-beats. The angle of the forearm to the keyboard doesn't make such a difference for the right hand figuration, and it's no problem reaching out for the staccato bass notes, but your left hand needs to be well aligned with the chords.

                                                  Try practising like this:

                                                  1. Left hand alone, without the staccato bass notes. You only play beats 2, 3, 5 and 6. Make sure that you are always in a good position to attack each chord straight on. Experiment where your upper body should be to make those chords as easy as possible.
                                                  2. Add the right hand, but still don't play the bass notes. Make sure your body position stays as it was when you played only the left hand. This should be easy. If it isn't, you need to practice the right hand more.
                                                  3. Finally, add the bass notes. You shouldn't be looking at your right hand at all: only look where the left hand is going.

                                                      MRC
                                                      Thanks! I'll try your tips.