• BBartK

  • Post #26

WieWaldi
I'm replying in good faith. No need for the sarcasm.

When I wrote my post I was replying to Animisha and I didn't see your post yet so I assumed two bass clefs one octave apart. If they are two octaves apart then indeed you end up with preserved intervals. That's an advantage, granted, but a really small one if you look at all the other things you have to learn to read music.

Anyway, if you want to propose a new system then it has to be significantly better for the majority of musicians, not just for learners. You might complain about that but that's just how things work. People don't adopt a new system unless there are clear advantages for them. Most musicians would just go "meh! whatever!" because the change of clef has a really tiny advantage and a huge disadvantage that you need to change all existing music and teach the new system to everyone. It's not worth the effort unless the advantage is overwhelmingly significant.

      • BBartK

      • Post #27

      macuaig Forgive a novice, but why do the staffs on a score need to connect at all? Instead of renaming all the lines and spaces, couldn’t it just be two separate tonal locations with the same map?

      That's fine if you have two instruments that play their own part in a limited range but that's not generally how most piano repertoire is written. The hands move smoothly between low and high on the keyboard, sometimes even crossing, and it's useful to see all the interval relationships between the low and high part of the staff as one continuum.

          BartK WieWaldi
          I'm replying in good faith. No need for the sarcasm.

          When I wrote my post I was replying to Animisha and I didn't see your post yet so I assumed two bass clefs one octave apart.

          Sorry - I really thought you answered to my post, because Animisha never wrote about two bass clefs. Her example was all about G-clefs. And I agree, shifting only 1 octave is too little.

          BartK Most musicians would just go "meh! whatever!" because the change of clef has a really tiny advantage and a huge disadvantage that you need to change all existing music and teach the new system to everyone.

          This is probably the only reason. It was 1672 and is today.
          Still, if you exchange the treble clef by a bass-15va clef you get rid of quite some ledger lines. And hands down, I would prefer to read one more ledger line to the bottom than constantly dealing with too many ledger lines on the top. Face it, we have a lot more ledger lines on top of the upper staff. Using a bass-15va instead is simply shifting the staff more toward the center of most notes used for piano playing.

                • BBartK

                • Post #29

                WieWaldi
                I think you're overestimating how much of an advantage it is. Like if I look at your earlier picture:

                What I see is a scale pattern. The way I would read that (assuming I know that the top clef is 2 octaves higher) is to notice the starting note, notice that it's a simple scale up with a repeated note and a skip of a 3rd (did you notice that? 😉), and then play it with the expected rhythm. I don't really put much thinking into which specific notes I'm playing because I'm just following a pattern and noticing changes from that pattern. The only note I have to read is the starting note. In real music there is a bit more movement but the idea is similar. You only have to read some strategic notes and you infer the rest using patterns relative to your starting note. This is why I don't think having the same clef in both staves is a huge advantage. It's only a tiny advantage of consistency when finding the starting note but after that you don't really have to care.

                    WieWaldi Many great and good inventions have been made by beginners.

                    This may be OT but I'm curious about this. Can you name or describe some inventions that were invented by novices (beginners) and which worked in the field they were relatively unfamiliar with? This is not for the sake of any argument here - I'm genuinely curious.

                        keystring Sure, I can name Richard van Basshuysen. Today, he is referred as the father of the direct injection engine for diesels. Because other companies failed in this research before, the mother company (VW) was against this research. Nevertheless, Basshuysen was the driving man inside AUDI to make this happen. This is the reason why the today's diesel engines consume 20% less of fuel.
                        If he was a so called diesel expert of his time, he probably knew it was impossible (because other companies already failed to to) to create a turbo diesel engine with direct injection. But: He didn't know it is impossible, so he did it.

                            keystring James Watt is another example. He did not invent the steam engine. He was just an engineer who repaired the Newcomen steam engine. By repairing it, he understood how it worked, and he recognized how to lower the heat loss. So he made an improvement to the design to enhance the efficiency.
                            Back at this time, he was an ordinary engineer, maybe more of a mechanic, but no steam engine expert by any means.

                                • macuaig

                                  • Post #33
                                  • Edited

                                  BartK Thanks, and I'm questioning rather than describing how piano music is written. Sticking to the idea of possibly keeping the notes-to-lines relationship consistent, there would have to be 3 ledger lines between the upper and lower clefs to put an F back on the top line of the bass clef? More to keep track of, but is it more radical to rename every line & space after just one ledger line on C?

                                  I'm guessing it was/is better to have just one ledger line C between the upper & lower staffs. But ANY complex system can be learned and habitualized, even to the point of losing track of the options (the very function of tradition). I'll keep looking for core reasons that the line renaming system became standard, as it's become clear to me that many traditions were settled on for reasons not always ideal. It won't change in my lifetime, but it's an interesting puzzle. Thanks.

                                  Perpetual Beginner, Yamaha P115

                                    WieWaldi Sure, I can name Richard van Basshuysen. Today, he is referred as the father of the direct injection engine for diesels.

                                    I looked up van Basshuysen. Here is what I found. (I know you read German).

                                    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_van_Basshuysen

                                    Kfz Schlosser (automotive mechanic-plus), then training as a mechanical engineer in the German system, then practical work in the research department in engine and transmission development. He was not a beginner inventing something in an unfamiliar field. That background gives an enormous and varied amount of experience in the field, combined with theoretical knowledge.

                                    James Watt, by what you described, also had practical experience; his learning path was unconventional from what I read just now.

                                    Both men would have had years of practical experience preceding their inventions.

                                    I don't want to link this to any of the discussions about music here.

                                    WieWaldi James Watt is another example. He did not invent the stea

                                          MRC n fact I don't think that would be a problem. In WieWaldi's proposed system, the continuance is at the note D, being on a space at the same distance down from the bottom line of the top clef (1 1/2 spaces) as it is up from the top line of the bottom clef.

                                          I was looking at his reference in the Tantacrul video to three hypothetical clefs named Tr, M, B which all had G as the bottom line. I didn't see anything about D in that discussion, but in fact, we'd end up with D as the middle line. That came to me while taking a nap. 😃

                                            keystring Both men were educated. But not exactly in the field of their biggest achievement.
                                            I might be a piano player beginner, but as a computer engineer I am working with scripting languages all my life. And some scripting languages are graphical constructed, to have a quick overview of the script without the need of reading every text line.

                                                WieWaldi I might be a piano player beginner, but as a computer engineer I am working with scripting languages all my life

                                                As a computer engineer, your work will also have a practical application, am I right? When you work with this scripting language, are you also involved in how it is used and that it is useable?

                                                I tried to stay away from the "about you" or "about anyone here" aspect and keep it an abstract generalization, because this can easily devolve into ad hominem, or hurt feelings.

                                                My attention was caught this morning by this.

                                                WieWaldi You know my opinion, one clef for LH and RH staff is better than having two different clefs.

                                                This seemed to reflect a lack of knowledge or experience regarding piano music. Yes, there are staves, and mostly music played in the lower staff is for the left hand, and music played in the upper staff is for the right hand. Sometimes it isn't - for good or stupid reasons.

                                                More important is the idea of a given clef for the left and right hand. If you are a beginner, you are probably playing music where the LH plays notes that are in the vicinity of below middle C, and the RH plays notes that are in the vicinity above middle C. If so, you're getting a distorted keyhole view of a much larger room.

                                                In piano music, you can have both hands playing below middle C or above middle C. In current notation, you may find the RH playing music in the bass clef. You will also have hands crossing over each other or flipping above, below, or in between. If by chance you have that limited view of piano playing, and you are designing notation for piano playing, I see potential problems.

                                                Any successful design will have testing procedures, experience and knowledge, as part of the process. Both of your examples had that.

                                                It is possible that the system you have in mind will work even if the hands go elsewhere than you expect, and it may do so. But that one statement gave me pause.

                                                      keystring Everything is true what you wrote about LH and RH. And I am very aware of it. I was just simplifying it, because most of the time the LH plays the bass clef and the RH plays the treble clef.

                                                      And here comes another problem with 2 different clefs. Sometimes when the score has a lot of high notes, the lower staff is written in treble clef and the upper staff is a treble 15va. And suddenly piano players are forced to read the treble clef on the lower staff. Most piano player are not used to do it. This leads to confusion and often to wrong notes during learning. Not to mention how much more difficult this makes sight-reading.
                                                      Same happens if the music goes down and both clefs are bass clef (the lower with 15ba). And on top of that, when hands are crossed the RH must play a bass clef, the LH the treble.

                                                      It is not only to get rid of learning 1 clef instead of 2 different ones. Currently we are learning 2 clefs, but used in 4 configurations in total (treble/bass is probably used 90% of all sheet music, treble/treble is 5%, bass/bass is 4% and bass/treble is 1%). If you ask me, that is a heck more stuff to learn, compared to a single clef with octave shift indicators.

                                                          BartK WieWaldi
                                                          I think you're overestimating how much of an advantage it is.

                                                          Actually, I underestimated the advantage. There is a big problem many of us piano players face (not only the beginners amongst us):
                                                          If both staff lines are treble. Or if both staff lines are bass clef. (One with an octave shift). So many players struggle in this situation, because they are not used to read treble-clef on the lower staff. Or reading bass-clef on the upper staff.
                                                          You see, we pianists are forced to learn 2 different clefs. And we train it by daily usage. And as result we are only able to apply the treble-clef for RH and bass-clef for LH. Leaving us screwed if the regular layout is broken and those exceptions come into play.

                                                          With everything the same clef, but only for different octave ranges, none of the hurdles happens in the first place.

                                                            WieWaldi Everything is true what you wrote about LH and RH. And I am very aware of it. I was just simplifying it, because most of the time the LH plays the bass clef and the RH plays the treble clef.

                                                            The problem with this kind of simplification is that it suggests what you understand and hold to be true. I'm not sure that I agree with the "most of the time".

                                                            WieWaldi And suddenly piano players are forced to read the treble clef on the lower staff. Most piano player are not used to do it.

                                                            This points to a major flaw in how music is taught. That situation should not exist. Here we're back in the world of teaching. For the last statement, most pianists would be used to it because it happens all over the place. But above all, we're getting at teaching flaws. That is a different topic.

                                                            If your system allows for the fact of what actually exists in music, namely that either hand can play anywhere on the keyboard, then all's good.

                                                                  keystring If your system allows for the fact of what actually exists in music, namely that either hand can play anywhere on the keyboard, then all's good.

                                                                  Every system allows this (the current treble/bass clef and my proposed bass-clef everywhere). My point is, to get rid of exceptions.

                                                                      WieWaldi My point is, to get rid of exceptions.

                                                                      exceptions to what?

                                                                          keystring In the current system, the normal thing is to read the treble clef on the upper staff for the right hand, and read the bass clef on the lower staff for the left hand. Everything different than that is an exception.

                                                                              WieWaldi In the current system, the normal thing is to read the treble clef on the upper staff for the right hand, and read the bass clef on the lower staff for the left hand. Everything different than that is an exception.

                                                                              In the current system, the normal thing is to read music in the clef indicating the geographical area on the keyboard where the music occurs. What learners are exposed to and how it is taught may give an impression of a false norm which can also hamper the student in the long run or force an unnecessary transition later on.

                                                                                In general, ledger lines are a nuisance, especially when there are more than two of them between a note and the closest staff. In playing cello, I'm happy to have, in addition to the bass clef, the tenor clef and the treble clef to avoid the use of extensive ledger lines. I also prefer either 8va or 8vb (played an octave higher or an active lower than written) to avoid the use of ledger lines. I'm often surprised at the way violin music is written, sometimes with six or more ledger lines! Very cumbersome looking. Why not an 8va?