Alternative music notation and keyboard layout

Sophia · 2025-01-27T23:23:55+00:00

Yeah, agree! I think it would be better to have a stave like this: Start with A, end with G. All between the lines. Then the 1/2 tones can go on top of th...

PASHKULI

Thanks for the transcribtion.
This is what PMN is with both noteheads and noteletters variants compared to the SMN:

and this is the map of PMN for this piece with tonality L³ (means minor or simply 3rd):

WieWaldi

Ah, I see.

So, if there are a lot of notes played together, you write them into a single line, using more horizontal space, right?

And how would you indicate an additional note, like the red one (another E, but one octave lower than the middle E)?

Like this?

MRC

WieWaldi So, if there are a lot of notes played together, you write them into a single line, using more horizontal space, right?

What happens when there are a lot of consecutive chords? What does something like this extract from one of Rachmaninoff's Études-Tableaux (op. 39 N° 5) look like in your PMN?

Here's a link to a MuseScore file:

https://musescore.com/user/84132019/scores/23231500

WieWaldi

To make it a little bit more compatible to the existing notes, I would go like this:

Have horizontal lines for octave seperation.
All notes played together should be printed in one single column. (Having two note-names on the same printing line should be avoided if possible. Make use of it only if there are crammed note clusters and there is not enough space in the column left.
It is good, if the note-name is located about where it sits inside the octave. (Estimation position, can shift if multiple notes are played together in same octave)
time signature left of bracket, but only once for the entire great stave
sharps & flats (if your note names need them) before note name
1.5x extension dot behind note name
standard note duration = 1/4
stem only = 1/8 note duration
every bar (or stem-flag) halves the note duration further
every closing bracket ")" doubles the note duration
still, we need break symbols. Use the exsiting ones and place them about center of the hand range.

PASHKULI

WieWaldi standard note duration = 1/4

stem only = 1/8 note duration

That is ok but I have chosen the quarter notes to have stems because usually quarter (¹/₄) notes are accounted for the beat measure, such as 4/4 and stems on them would make visually get the feel of the beat (on rather typical songs, not always though).
With that in mind, quavers (¹/₈) or eighth notes are arguably the most used (in general) so having stems and flags or only stems makes the appearance quite busy. That was my reasonig to leave quavers as they are: no stems, no flags.

PASHKULI

MRC What happens when there are a lot of consecutive chords? What does something like this extract from one of Rachmaninoff's Études-Tableaux (op. 39 N° 5) look like in your PMN?

and for orientation… although only with the noteheads (not with noteletters):

PASHKULI

The idea is to avoid vertical space and read the notes chards, arpeggios, phrase more like words… but without the consonances. For example the word 'interval' you can write as: n t r v l
It won't use more horisontal space unless we are talking about specific three\four note chords (harmonies) with no accidentals, because if you usually use accidentals then it is the same horiz. space more or less.
Only the four note chords from the first note (the root or lowest matches the renova note\separator) will be four letters\symbols. Every next such chord will hake the highest note placed on the row above because it would have crossed the renova separator.

Yes, to add another note as per your request you do that what you have done but there should be also connecting line intended for the hand. This is because a single letter or filled nothead in PMN is equal to ¹/₈ note.
The notes are on the left of the dash (or could be dotted) line so they are intended for the left hand. But if they were on he right it would mean 'play with the right hand'.

keystring

PASHKULI The notes are on the left of the dash (or could be dotted) line so they are intended for the left hand. But if they were on he right it would mean 'play with the right hand'.

How does this work with the pianist's choice of spontaneous note distribution?

keystring

Referring to the image below. I have scrolled through two entire threads, since this one seems to be an offshoot of another one, and could not find any reference or chart or anything to tell us what these symbols mean (L, P, V etc.) There was another that had things that looked like little hearts and such - again, I couldn't find references regarding what they mean.

PASHKULI

PASHKULI

keystring
Per note, of course. In my system you can assign any note its own left or right "hand" to play it with the fingers.

• the example is a bit redundant but essentially means notes on the right of the dashed line are meant for the right hand, regardless on which stave they would be written – this line overwrites the typical G and F clef staves as they usually imply which hand is in charge.
For example, had the dashed lines on those "smiley" looking noteheads were on the other side, essentially that would mean the hands had to cross… because of how the piano layout is – one directional and ascending from left to right which essentially makes all pianos left-handed! But also they make the natural requirement for the left hand a bit extorted in terms of dexterity.
I am writing an article on that! Here is an excerpt:

It can even be modified to show the exact finger then but there has to be a convertion regarding the symbols of each finger. Small letters is fine, I guess: t, i, m, r, p
but those small letters might interfere with lyrics, dynamics such as (mf, pf, p,).

keystring

The mirror image G clef which now is meant to point to a middle D even though the G symbol is still used ---- For anyone with a visual-directional difficulty/disability, mirror image is a problem. One cause of dyslexia is when people flip things: p q b d will mix together. I don't have dyslexia, but do have this problem. It's the same reason that the symmetry of piano keys first mixed me up when I tried to start looking at my hands. I realized why I probably always went by sound and touch.

A mirror image G clef acting in the role of pointing to D is an impossibility for me. I didn't even realize it was flipped until you said so. You would want to slide that G clef over so that it actually points to where the new G is. Otoh, why not use the C clef? Or invent a new clef (symbol) designating D if you want your middle line to represent D3?

PASHKULI

keystring
Brother, it was a lazy job on my behalf. Of course any such D clef will have its own symbol. But in my PMN (plain music notation) system there are no such "fancy" drawn clefs (former letters).

WieWaldi

PASHKULI

Ahhh - sorry to say that, Pashkuli. The more I think about it, the less I like it.

With the current notation, if you have the same notes repeated over and over again, I see it in a glance. And if one note is different, I spot it instanty. Recognizing ascending and descending runs, no problem.
Sight reading: I don't read every note, often it is enough to know, if it is a small intervall up or down. I am not even interested what name that note has.

In your system, Pashkuli, if I see notes like this:
356 356 356 358 356 356 356 358 356 356 356 358 356 356
it is so hard to detect the odd ones.
(btw - I am using numbers here, because we all know how to deal with numbers, and we can read them quicker than anything else)

Reading your system reminds me a little bit on those "eye-tests":

6666666666666666666666666666
6666666666666666666666666666
6666666666666666666666666666
6666666666666666666666666666
6666669666666666666666666666
6666666666666666666666666666
(Find the odd one)

keystring

@PASHKULI , in answering me, you have written about the left and right hands, and you have used "t, i, m, r, p" to designate "thumb, index, middle, ring, pinky". But the diagram I referenced and asked about does not use those letters. I see: L, P, V, L, L
What do these letters represent. Do you have a chart of legend somewhere to indicate what the symbols mean? Nobody can read new symbols until they know what the symbols mean.

If you are proposing a notation system that indicates fingering for piano there is a huge problem: Pianists choose different fingering for the same piece depending on the size of their hands and other factors. Sometimes, also, we "redistribute the notes" (decide the LH plays notes that seem designated for the RH, or vice versa. You can't assign fingering, because fingering itself will change according to the player. The piano is not a "fixed finger" instrument. Wind instruments, otoh, are.

I am left handed btw.

PASHKULI

keystring I see: L, P, V, L, L
What do these letters represent. Do you have a chart of legend somewhere to indicate what the symbols mean?

Yes, it is in the links above (post 22, it is my post). But if you'd like the fast screenshot, here it is.

and with the corresponding noteheads…

keystring I am left handed. I studied violin for a few years and also play guitar (classical) and recorder (descant, alto, tenor). I use the same hands as right handed people. There are reasons for this. (The people in the drawing described as "right handed musicians" might not be right handed.)

Yes, it is terrible that people have to do it in contrast to their handedness.
To be left-handed (a minority regarding dexterity) is not uncommon amongst musicians, but I am curious what reasons are there for left-handed people to learn like right-handed besides… hand-writing (left to right – european language scripts) but since typewriters and computers – that necessity is not crucial (to handwrite).
Charlie Chaplin used a left-handed violin. But let's stick to the Muusic notation.

and more visuals on PMN…

keystring

I didn't see an answer to this (regarding the "fingering") notation - dunno if that is part of your proposed system.

keystring If you are proposing a notation system that indicates fingering for piano there is a huge problem: Pianists choose different fingering for the same piece depending on the size of their hands and other factors.

keystring

PASHKULI To be left-handed (a minority regarding dexterity) is not uncommon amongst musicians, but I am curious what reasons are there for left-handed people to learn like right-handed besides… hand-writing (left to right – european language scripts) but since typewriters and computers – that necessity is not crucial (to handwrite).

For violin you have the role of the hands rather than any directional thing as you propose. If you're right handed, when you write you'll hold the paper down with the left hand, and the moving hand is the right; you hold the nail down with the left, and wield the hammer with your right. For violin, the more "still" hand doing some of the holding (no shoulder rest, the neck rests on part of left thumb and collarbone) is the left hand. The one doing a lot of moving is the right hand, i.e. the bow hand. So for the left hand player, there is a kind of role reversal.

For a "left handed violin", the sound post etc. would have to be moved because the instrument would have to be restrung. An instructor watching and guiding the student would be looking at a mirror image, and the student watching the teacher would also have to mirror-image reverse what they're seeing. As soon as you're in an ensemble or orchestra, your bow arm will clash into that of the person next to you, and you'd have a "sword fight". (We discussed all that at the time that I was studying that instrument).

PASHKULI

keystring
No, the fingering was just an amendment here… on the go. I have a completely understanding about fingers because our hands are symmetric so should be the direction of ascending notes on the piano in particular.

Ragerding orchestra and violins… Yes, I have heard that. But it is a matter of arrengement on stage. Indeed, it will requira e complete mirrored reconstruction for the instrument.
One of my favourite guitarist in fusion and hard rock\metal Kiko Loureiro is also left handed. He explained that when he was a boy he liked the pro rock, and jazz\fusion but his older sister had already a guitar. She was right-handed and becuse they could not afford a special left-handed made guitar and his teacher was also right handed, he at 12 was sort of forced to learn it the… "right" way. And he has done great in his career in spite of that early inconvenience.
"Practice makes perfect!", I guess.

Same with pianos and accordions. Accordions are 100% suited for left-handed player. Pianos also, but the note direction for the left-hand has to be… reversed in order tu suit 100% the left-handed players! The rest 90% of the players (right-handed) fall under the moto yet again: "Practice makes perfect!"

It is pity really… but it is the harsh truth!

PASHKULI

Lets look at trumpets and horns for a moment.
Two very similar brass wind instruments. Yet, trumpets are usually played with right hand's fingers on the buttons, while horns – with the left hand's fingers on the buttons. Shocking!

WieWaldi

I have slept over this entire topic and thinking a lot about it. And I have seen the Music Notation Must Die Video.

And my ~~final~~ current conclusion is the following:
Our current notation system is good, except the clefs we are using. I am not saying clefs a bad, but it is awkward that each clef displays notes differently. I still stick to my proposal to use the same clef for everything, the F-clef (bass clef with D as center note).
And funny thing, in the video is mentioned many people complained about this. And the ref. Thomas Salmon proposal is exactly the same as mine. He used our existing F-clef (with D as center note for symmetry) three times and named them "Tr", "M" and "B" (treble, middle, base). In my opinion: perfect 👍
Well, he invested more time in the 17th century than me today to change this. And was not successful, the existing system was already too etablished. Still, it is nice to learn, I am not an idiot by thinking about it and getting the same conclusion.

About typical other innovations and new ideas:

chromatic staff, no flats and sharps. This is something that is so obvious to do. Until you try it and see the amount of lines. And the consumed space. Nope - bad idea.
piano roll - like the chromatic staff but worse. You don't use clefs and the score is always BIG

No, seriously, I like the notation as it is, (except the clef-thing). And as minor improvements, I would like to have other symbols for flat, sharp and natural. Why? Because the b has more ink on top of the center than on the bottom. Optical, it raises the note a little bit, but the meaning is to lower it. If we used a "q" or a "p" instead, it would be better.
Sharps and naturals looks too similar. If I get a really bad quality copy of sheet music, I have trouble to properly distingish both symbols.
And that's it with my critique.

MRC

Thanks, WieWaldi and Keystring: you already mentioned some points I was going to make. If I find the time, I'll have a lot more to say about this, but for the moment I'll just point out one thing:

Note what WieWaldi says here:

WieWaldi In your system, Pashkuli, if I see notes like this:
356 356 356 358 356 356 356 358 356 356 356 358 356 356
it is so hard to detect the odd ones.

Has anyone else noticed these errors in the transcription?

PASHKULI

WieWaldi Ahhh - sorry to say that, Pashkuli. The more I think about it, the less I like it.

It is expected. It is new point of veiw. Do not tell me you started reading the "standard" music notation right away.
You didn't. I am sure you have spent at lest an year before you could read it fairly easy and… without key signatures!

You look at my system and overnight say you do not like it. I said that to the "standard" one after a couple of years when I understood what is wrong with it.

MRC

PASHKULI Letters, not numbers! I think I mentioned that somewhere above earlier. Do not ever use numbers – unless only for interval structure but never for notes.
The correct example would be:

BDR BDR BDR BDF BDR BDR BDR BDF BDR BDR BDR BDF BDR BDR

Just as hard to detect the odd ones.

WieWaldi With the current notation, if you have the same notes repeated over and over again, I see it in a glance. And if one note is different, I spot it instanty. Recognizing ascending and descending runs, no problem.

Exactly.

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