Alternative music notation and keyboard layout

Sophia · 2025-01-27T23:23:55+00:00

Yeah, agree! I think it would be better to have a stave like this: Start with A, end with G. All between the lines. Then the 1/2 tones can go on top of th...

PASHKULI

WieWaldi Why not the lowest line without ledgers?

It will be sort of repetition (overlap) but so is the ledger line. Though the more ledger lines the harder\busier to read.
But I guess practice makes perfect so musicians have taught themselves to read three maybe even four ledger lines at a glance. You see it a million times, you remeber it. Similarly to numbers and letters.
I do not think overlap would be a problem but it shortens the range in this case. So I guess one line\ledger is the bare minimum between the staves – but it could be just a space between lines – yet again one line is like a mark. Who knows really, but that is my understanding regarding the "grand" staff.

WieWaldi On the keyboard we have D and Ab/G#.

Yes, true… but… not every musician is a pianist after all.
So you are basically saying a D clef would be optimal for both staves on a grand staff. I do agree. And it will be in the middle of the five lines. Then the predisposition would be the uper stave is the 'middle D' and the lower stave is 'submidle D' (renova\"octave" lower than the middle)…
Sorry, my mistake, they will have to be two renovas\"octaves" apart!

So it means that the D clefs (in this case) will be further appart and the actual 'middle D' note will be in the ledger lines between the staves.
I hope you'd agree that with your staff both F clefs are two "octaves" (I prefer the term renova) apart.
Where on the standard (current) grand staff the F and G clefs are one "octave" (+ two chrom. tones) apart. This is by apearance more continuous than the proposed equal clefs but not that it is crucial.

Yes, the F clef is actually the letter F with some "stenographic" dismorphing applied.
So is the G clef, it is the letter G, though heavily dismorphed and actually during the centuries in the past it looked to me more like the small Greek letter sigma σ (but it is not). It is G.

WieWaldi

PASHKULI Yes, true… but… not every musician is a pianist after all.

Still, our (western) music theory groups all notes into main-notes (used in C-Major / A-minor scale) and accidental-notes (the black keys). And the Halberstadt keyboard layout is based on that. Even for instruments that don't show this layout like a guitar, the black/white pattern to get a Major-C scale is the same. On the piano keyboard, the music theory is just made visible.
Furthermore, we keyboarders are the species that struggles most with reading sheet music, as we must read two staves at the same time. For all other instrument players (reading only one stave), there is not that much need for optimizing reading efficiency.

PASHKULI I hope you'd agree that with your staff both F clefs are two "octaves" (I prefer the term renova) apart.
Where on the standard (current) grand staff the F and G clefs are one "octave" (+ two chrom. tones) apart. This is by apearance more continuous than the proposed equal clefs but not that it is crucial.

Actually, our treble (G-clef) and bass clef (F-clef) are 2 octaves ~~plus~~ minus ~~two~~ three chromatic tones apart.
A --¹--> B_b --²--> B --³--> C
(If I compare two notes on the same staff location, A on treble clef looks like C on bass clef.)
Using two times the same clef with an octave shift, it is always exactly full octaves apart. (Of course)

btw: I don't like the term octave as well, but I'll stick to it, so everybody knows what I am talking about.

PASHKULI

WieWaldi On the piano keyboard, the music theory is just made visible.
We are talking again about a stylistic preference and development of 'official' (usually supported by The Church) development of music. That theory is what has been taught. I would stick to Debussy's remark that… "Music has no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. I love music passionately."

Yes, two staves is a pain in the rear. I never had to learn it though (both the piano playing and the staff).

WieWaldi Actually, our treble (G-clef) and bass clef (F-clef) are 2 octaves plus minus two three chromatic tones apart.

I did not get that one. What do you mean by it? I meant the possition of the actual current known F and G clefs.
Just above the F clef there is a G note, which is exactly a renova ("octave") bolow the G clef on the upper staff.

What or which "2 octaves ~~plus~~ minus ~~two~~ three chromatic tones apart" do you mean?

WieWaldi

PASHKULI I did not get that one. What do you mean by it? I meant the possition of the actual current known F and G clefs.

It does not matter, that a G is above the F note. The G-line of the G-clef is another position than the F-line of the F-clef. Therefore, you can't say they are one note apart (because G is just about F).

It is a bit weird, I know. The center of the circle of the treble clef marks the optical center of the the treble symbol. Similar as the circle of the flat-symbol (b) marks its position inside the staff.
And on the bass clef, the big heavy dot is regarded as optical center.

WieWaldi

PASHKULI What or which "2 octaves minus three chromatic tones apart" do you mean?

A chromatic tone is a semi-tone. Actually, chromatic tones play no role here, because sometime half a line is one chromatic tone sometimes it is two chromatic tones. Let's talk about notes only - that makes more sense.

Let me rephrase:
The treble clef and the bass clef are 2 octaves minus 2 notes apart.

(if you reference the same position on both staffs, we have a distance of 2 octaves minus 2 notes)

PASHKULI

WieWaldi
I think you are referring any two intervals from a fixed note (that C on the F clef). Not the clefs (the notes they represent each) themselves. I was refering only to the clefs' own notes – they are a renova\"octave" + twi chrom. notes apart on the "standard" grand staff. Intervals can be any and many (because E_F are a semi-tone (tone) apart diatonically, but also a tone cromatically). Not sure what all those C "reference" notes are supposed to show.

With the symmetric clefs (D in the middle line) the actual notes D on each clef (the middle lines of the staves) will be 2 (two) renovas apart. Therefore the 'middle D' will be "floating" with a ledger line – inbetween the middle two ledger lines – between the staves. This is good and somehow intuitive to learn.

Maybe 15+ years ago I proporsed a simmilar 'redesign' (albeit with six lines on each stave so the 'middle D' falls in the space row inbetween them) for the grand staf on the musicnotationproject website. Probably it is still there somewhere, but the site closed now (for editing\submitions\uploads).

WieWaldi

Actually yes. What you describe as "D-clef" is exactly the same as the existing F-clef / bass-clef. Just notice, on your D-clef, the F is on the F-line of the F-clef 🤫.

Btw, it looks weird if you shift the treble-sign to the center of the staff and call the treble-symbol a "D" (because the treble symbol is a "g" with a lot of serifs). This is why I used in my illustration the good old and already existing F-clef instead.

PASHKULI Maybe 15+ years ago I proporsed a simmilar 'redesign' (albeit with six lines on each stave so the 'middle D' falls in the space row inbetween them) for the grand staf on the musicnotationproject website. Probably it is still there somewhere, but the site closed now (for editing\submitions\uploads).

This would be a good system, too. I am just worried six lines can get overwhelming. Five lines is already plenty of lines. Sometimes I (as a beginner) locate a note in the wrong place. Mistakes like mixing up the A and C in the center of the staff. Even if I would like to revolutionize the music notation, 5 lines are good.

PASHKULI

WieWaldi
No need for the six lines really but it means that the "middle D" will be between two ledger lines.
Also, notice that the G clef is now "flipped" (mirrored) so it actually represents a letter D without any need to redesign it in fact. 😉

If you ask me, no lines is better, but every note should have its own consonant letter. But we are going 2000+ years back in time. I am trying to build on that ancient concept where diatonic and chromatic were treated as equals.

WieWaldi

PASHKULI If you ask me, no lines is better, but every note should have its own consonant letter. But we are going 2000+ years back in time. I am trying to build on that ancient concept where diatonic and chromatic were treated as equals.

Oh yes - here music theory comes into play. Every Major scale uses 7 different notes. Every minor scale, too. And in every of our 12 Major and minor scales, everyone of the 7 notes exists exactly 1 once. If you base the music notation around this fact, it makes sense to have the notes as they are with sharps and flats. Even with the fact that sometimes a flattened note is the same as a regular note. E.g. F_b = E. Or vice versa, the E# = F.

As (most) classical music is based around Major and minor scales, you are only using a subset of 7 different notes out of 12. This help tremendous to reduce the required lines in the staff. Or you can say, this helps to increase the note-range with the same number of staff-lines. It just does not fit to blues-scales and gospel-scales (and probably other genres with afro-amerikan roots)

I think if we really try to get rid of sharps and flats and have a dedicated position for every chromatic tone, the amount of lines will overwhelm us. Sharps and flats are bad, but too many lines are even worse.

PASHKULI Also, notice that the G clef is now "flipped" (mirrored) so it actually represents a letter D without any need to redesign it in fact. 😉

+1 haha

PASHKULI

WieWaldi
Again, no lines is better. But this we discussed in the other thread with the user MRC.
https://forum.pianotell.com/d/1527-pianos-keys-are-badly-designed/14

WieWaldi

PASHKULI I second what MRC said:
replacing the short term problem to deal with sharps and flats
by the long term problem of having too many lines, and therefore quickly recognizing notes, intervals, etc.

To deal with flats and sharps can be learned, but the struggle of too many lines remains, no matter how much you practice.

PASHKULI

WieWaldi
I do not know why you keep insisting on those lines. In my notation system there are no lines. Well besides the bar lines, of course and the stems of some of the notes. You might be too bound to the status quo. The world of Music notation is much broader than that and has been long, looooong before the concoption of the current (church) notation system.

WieWaldi

How would you notate this bar without lines?

PASHKULI

WieWaldi
Using a completely new system. I have provided the links to the presentations in a previous post #22 if I can recall it from scrolling.

WieWaldi

I have read your presentation, still I am unable to translate it into your notation system.
Please translate it.

PASHKULI

WieWaldi
Have you got the midi export .mid of it by any chance?
Actually, do not bother, I will try and replicate it in MuseScore or Overture or Notion.

it is too messy, I do not know how people even manage… I tried but when separate voices are to be placed, it does not cooperate (I am stuck with this nonsense of Music notataion)

WieWaldi

PASHKULI No, I just picked a random snippet from the internet. I looked for having one note in different octaves and having multiple notes with different duration.

Come on, it is one single bar. Shouldn't take that long to write it down in your notation language.

WieWaldi

PASHKULI it is too messy, I do not know how people even manage…

It is Bach’s Partita no. 6 in E minor.
I don't think it is messy, I consider myself a beginner and have played more complicated stuff already.

It is the 1st bar of this one

Edit: I played more complicated stuff, than the first bar of this.

PASHKULI

WieWaldi
I do not know, the software places rests and when I try to separate the voices it starts from the begining of the bar.
I am certainly not proficient in using this notation nor the software. A little help will be much appreciated, otherwise will have to find the midi.
Can you write it in MuseScore for me? So I can export it as is to midi.
The software places idiotic rests… I know I am doing something wrong but…

WieWaldi

In musescore editing is easy.
Gimme 2 minutes...

Okay - took a bit longer.
Didn't know how to share, let's try this:

https://musescore.com/user/38461496/scores/23223019/s/tw1F4z

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