Sophia Ok, I'll bite. What is written there is complete gobbledegook. The piano is tuned, there is absolutely NO NEED for perfect pitch. In fact even singers don't need perfect pitch - that's what tuning forks are for.

What is that writer even trying to say????? NONE of the skills mentioned are needed as such. You don't need to be a composer to enjoy making gorgeous music. What is that book trying to teach???

The only thing I agree with is (somewhat) that you need to be able to hear what it should sound in order to produce the sound that is needed. But the rest, excuse my colourful language, is sheer BS.

I think the theme is mental practice. And I believe he's saying mental practice uses absolute pitch to help with the memorization process. Here's a link to the page with the below quote (I don't want to keep quoting too much since it's copyright material.): Learning Relative Pitch and Absolute Pitch (Sight Singing, Composing)

In that section* we saw that the final objective of memorizing is to be able to play the music in your mind (mental play, MP). It turns out that, by paying attention to RP and AP during the process of practicing MP, you naturally acquire the pitch skills! Thus, you do not only play music in your mind, but you must always play it at the correct pitch. This makes perfect sense because, without playing at the correct pitch, you lose so many of the benefits of MP. Conversely, MP will not work well unless it is done in AP, because MP is a memory function, and memory is associative and AP is one of the most important associations – AP is what gives music its true melodic lines, color, expression, etc.

*He's referring to the Memorizing section.

      thepianoplayer416 I come from a non-musical family. Everybody in the family had music lessons in the past including recorder, violin, guitar or accordion but nobody played at a high level or became a professional. A few months ago there was a performance of the Tchaikovsky "Pathetique" Symphony #6 on TV. Mom watched the performance without any emotional response. She didn't know what the music was all about besides the fact that it has 4 movements.

      Thanks for sharing. It's interesting to hear other people's musical backgrounds. The only music I remember being played on the radio while growing up was what they used to call Country & Western. Other than that it was the Hee Haw and Lawrence Welk TV shows.

      thepianoplayer416 As an adult learner, I don't have a choice to start earlier.

      I never had the choice as a child. I remember trying out for the school band, but didn't get selected. Over the years I toyed with the idea of learning an instrument, however I didn't get serious about it until a couple months ago.

      Thanks for posting that video. I like that guys energy and I like what he had to say. I'll be checking out more of his channel.

          Kaydia Sophia Ok, I'll bite. What is written there is complete gobbledegook. The piano is tuned, there is absolutely NO NEED for perfect pitch. In fact even singers don't need perfect pitch - that's what tuning forks are for.

          What is that writer even trying to say????? NONE of the skills mentioned are needed as such. You don't need to be a composer to enjoy making gorgeous music. What is that book trying to teach???

          The only thing I agree with is (somewhat) that you need to be able to hear what it should sound in order to produce the sound that is needed. But the rest, excuse my colourful language, is sheer BS.

          I think the theme is mental practice. And I believe he's saying mental practice uses absolute pitch to help with the memorization process. Here's a link to the page with the below quote (I don't want to keep quoting too much since it's copyright material.): Learning Relative Pitch and Absolute Pitch (Sight Singing, Composing)

          In that section* we saw that the final objective of memorizing is to be able to play the music in your mind (mental play, MP). It turns out that, by paying attention to RP and AP during the process of practicing MP, you naturally acquire the pitch skills! Thus, you do not only play music in your mind, but you must always play it at the correct pitch. This makes perfect sense because, without playing at the correct pitch, you lose so many of the benefits of MP. Conversely, MP will not work well unless it is done in AP, because MP is a memory function, and memory is associative and AP is one of the most important associations – AP is what gives music its true melodic lines, color, expression, etc.

          *He's referring to the Memorizing section.

          It's not necessary to have absolute pitch to do MP. Absolute pitch is probably helpful in memorizing a piece, but is rarely mentioned in articles about memorization probably because so few people have absolute pitch. Most people think absolute pitch cannot be learned but is inborn.

          In addition, I think the paragraph from the book you quoted is an example of his unclear and poor writing.
          Absolute and relative pitch are very different but he uses them both in the same paragraph sometimes together, sometimes separately, switching back and forth.

              • Kaydia

              • Post #21
              • Edited

              Nightowl That looks like an interesting book, I took a quick look at the contents and there is a section called "Can we all be Mozarts?" which has piqued my interest.

              I'm going to check out more of his book. As @pianoloverus said, there's some good stuff in there, which I did get a taste of during my skimming.

              Nightowl I have a similar mindset about the pieces I'm capable of playing, in that I'm happy to play simpler pieces and have no aspiration to play complex pieces that students might study for a grade 8 exam. More than that, I actually dislike listening to pieces involving masses of notes played at crazy speeds, such as Flight Of The Bumblebee - they make me feel ill! I like simple melodies and slow romantic pieces, which is fortunate because I doubt that I'll ever be able to play fast moving pieces.

              I'm so glad to hear other people say they also prefer simpler pieces. I've always felt "simple-minded" about it, like not sophisticated, or whatever. I think for me it's the density of a piece, or as you put it, "masses of notes" that I don't care for. And while really fast pieces don't make me feel ill, they do make me feel tense. And, yep, I don't need to worry about playing pieces to fast for me. There're plenty enough slower pieces I'd love to play.

                    From the book:

                    Once you are deeply involved with mental play, you will discover that it doesn’t really work without absolute pitch.

                    I am pretty sure absolute pitch is not necessary to play piano well. Maybe at the very top level for professionals, but not for the rest.

                    I also wonder how much the author understands what qualifies as absolute pitch. Rick Beato did a series of YT videos that explains and demos absolute pitch, like this, this, and this.

                    Also there is a compelling argument against the need of absolute pitch for musicians.

                    On the other hand, musicians really need accurate relative pitch for many things they do. Unlike absolute pitch which you are either born with or not, relative pitch can be attained by most people via training.

                        pianoloverus It's not necessary to have absolute pitch to do MP. Absolute pitch is probably helpful in memorizing a piece, but is rarely mentioned in articles about memorization it was so few people have absolute pitch. Most people think absolute ditch cannot be learned but it's in born.

                        In addition I think the paragraph from the book you quoted is an example of his unclear and poor writing.
                        Absolute and relative pitch are very different but he uses them both in the same paragraph sometimes together, sometimes separately, switching back and forth.

                        On that page I linked, he explains why he believes AP is necessary. I'm not saying I agree with him. I don't have a desire to memorize my pieces, so it's not relevant to my learning process.

                            ranjit Basically, he's talking about pitch memory. At an advanced level, it is when someone can recall, say, the opening note of Fur Elise, and figure out the other notes using relative pitch. I have experienced this on occasion but have never managed to be consistent with it. I know several people without perfect pitch who can do this.

                            Right, that's just the ability to recognize intervals and is a very useful skill to have. But as you said, that too doesn't require perfect pitch. My dad had near perfect pitch and when he was asked for an A or whatever, he could almost always hum the exact note right away. Definitely not the same thing as having relative pitch, so I fully agree with you there.

                            Interesting discussion you started here @Kaydia - but I dare say that for us (near) beginners (with less than a few years of learning behind us), none of this is relevant just yet. It doesn't mean we can't passionately discuss it all the same 😄

                                ranjit This is kind of true. Basically, he's talking about pitch memory. At an advanced level, it is when someone can recall, say, the opening note of Fur Elise, and figure out the other notes using relative pitch. I have experienced this on occasion but have never managed to be consistent with it. I know several people without perfect pitch who can do this.

                                Yes, that makes sense. I can do that somewhat with very, very simple tunes, like a nursery rhyme, or something popular like jingle bells. I'm sure it wouldn't be perfect, though.

                                  iternabe I am pretty sure absolute pitch is not necessary to play piano well. Maybe at the very top level for professionals, but not for the rest.

                                  That's why I skipped over that and started skimming. If I thought AP was necessary I might as well give up learning piano now. 😄

                                      ANDRE PREVIN has it; Willie Nelson does not. Nat King Cole had it; Vladimir Horowitz did not. About 10 percent of students at the Juilliard School of Music have it but most musicians don't.

                                      "It" is perfect or absolute pitch -- a cluster of abilities relating to identifying and recalling musical notes from memory, without hearing another note as a reference.

                                      Source: NYT - Perfect Pitch: The Key May Lie In the Genes

                                      Kaydia I'm so glad to hear other people say they also prefer simpler pieces. I've always felt "simple-minded" about it, like not sophisticated, or whatever.

                                      I think that many people share this love of simpler pieces, as they like tunes that they can hum along to, or simple songs that they can sing along to - maybe this explains the popularity of Country and Western music, which is often described as "three chords and the truth". That said, I do love some classical music, especially pieces by Tchaikovsky and Chopin, but I accept that I'll probably never be able to do them justice. Also, many wonderful classical pieces were composed for a full orchestra, so when they are played as solo pieces on the piano they can sound a bit incomplete.

                                      "Don't let's ask for the moon, we have the stars." (Final line from Now,Voyager, 1942)

                                        iternabe Also there is a compelling argument against the need of absolute pitch for musicians.

                                        Thanks for sharing that video. I just watched it and thought it was very interesting. I'd heard of the concept of quasi-absolute pitch, just didn't know it was called that.

                                          Sophia Interesting discussion you started here @Kaydia - but I dare say that for us (near) beginners (with less than a few years of learning behind us), none of this is relevant just yet. It doesn't mean we can't passionately discuss it all the same 😄

                                          For sure! Carry on! 🙂

                                            When I got a piano again after 35 years, having self-taught as a child, that PDF-book came to my attention in 2008 so 17 years ago. I did not yet have enough playing experience to judge the technical parts. (A few glances now, there are things I don't like.) I stopped reading when I got to a chapter on how to do something that is natural and easy for me, and his "how to" made it difficult and unpleasant. It may have been a part about memorizing, maybe with a melody or themes. I perceive these like sentences, as units. He had this string of pitches, or numerical patterns, or something. In that sense, his being a physicist seemed quite relative, because my mind said "He thinks like a physicist. I'm not a physicist. This is making music hard when it doesn't have to be hard."

                                            Fwiw, I have relative pitch. Some "perfect pitch" got awakened in an exercise I did once ---- by that I mean recognizing A as A rather than the 3rd degree note in a major key having its Tonic on F.

                                            I don't consider myself as having Perfect Pitch. In my younger days I can play easy songs on the recorder by ear mainly due to a good memory.

                                            I had 2 interesting experiences before & after the New Year. Before the Christmas break I practiced a Handel piece "Passacaille" (Passacaglia) with a strings ensemble playing violin. The first half of the music practice everybody had the instruments tuned to the standard A=440 pitch. The second half we all tuned to A=415 (the Baroque pitch) for authenticity. I found that when I practiced the piece at the standard pitch, my note accuracy fell to about 90%. I can still follow the music but would make more mistakes. When the tuning was at the lower pitch (415), my accuracy went up to 98% except for 1 or 2 careless misses. Someone with Perfect Pitch would learn songs in specific keys. A song that is not in a certain key would sound "wrong". My tuning was leaning towards someone with PP.

                                            After the New Year came across an old piano in a store. As expected the tuning was out. Played 2 pieces I was familiar with. Besides trying to avoid a key that was stuck, the playing was fine. My tuning was learning towards someone with relative pitch. I basically used 1 set of notes as reference for the next with muscle memory. A piano that is out-of-tune didn't bother me.

                                            Going back to the original age range data and our ability to play music I'm way pass the age of becoming a pro musician. Today I'm finding more older adults are getting into playing music as brain exercise.

                                            I'm with a group of adult pianists. Don't think any of my teacher's students in the retired age group even plan to take a conservatory exam. We're just playing for enjoyment as a hobby. Many of us are happy to play an easy version of a Christmas tune out of the Faber Christmas songbook.

                                            He's talking about musical memory that ends up being in the correct pitch. Technically, it is not absolute pitch and he isn't correct, but his overall point is alright.

                                            I have heard some excellent pianists praise the book. It is flawed, but even something flawed can be useful. And I think it has been useful for many, myself included.

                                            It is also a nice gesture of him to put out the book for free: http://www.pianopractice.org/

                                            I don't think he would mind discussing excerpts of his book. Many have done so.

                                            This thread was written when I was in my bed sleeping. I'll skip a lot of posts about the book, and return to this.

                                            Kaydia Based on my starting age of 65, the message is basically that time is short, and I should hurry up and learn so I can get to the music I want to play. As long as it's not too complicated and won't take too much time to learn. I guess it's a good thing that I like simpler pieces.

                                            I was maybe ten years younger than you were when I started to learn to play the piano, but I was heading (fast!) towards my second burn-out that was a hard blow to my brain. Many of its functions recovered, but memory / working memory did not. So even though my body was younger, my brain was not.
                                            In this situation, I chose to focus on learning to play as beautifully and expressively as I can. The last three words are very important, because I once was a child with very clumsy motor skills (both fine and gross), so playing beautifully and expressively does not come naturally to me. However, this is a goal that I can achieve - and can achieve every time I finish with a piece.
                                            After some detours, I ended up at the Piano Career Academy, where I had excellent lessons that focused very much on technique.

                                            Sgisela Anyways, for me, the joy of playing piano is (and I think always has been) much more about the process of practicing and working through things than it is about the end result.

                                            Rather shortly after I had bought my piano, I watched a documentary about a Swedish ballet dancer. She said: I love to practise. If you become a ballet dancer just because of the performances, it won't work. You spend so much more time practising than performing!
                                            I realised, for me to continue with the piano, I need to love practising. Otherwise, I may just as well sell the piano now. And I do, I love practising. Not every day, not every time, but I do.

                                            *
                                            ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                                  Kaydia iternabe I am pretty sure absolute pitch is not necessary to play piano well. Maybe at the very top level for professionals, but not for the rest.

                                                  That's why I skipped over that and started skimming. If I thought AP was necessary I might as well give up learning piano now. 😄
                                                  AP is absolutely not necessary to play the piano well and absolutely not necessary for mental practice. While some terrific pianists have AP, others do not. I have not read a single article or book(and I've read many on memorization) where AP is even mentioned as an important tool for memorization or do mental practice probably because so few people have it.

                                                    Kaydia pianoloverus It's not necessary to have absolute pitch to do MP. Absolute pitch is probably helpful in memorizing a piece, but is rarely mentioned in articles about memorization probably because so few people have absolute pitch. Most people think absolute pitch cannot be learned but it's in born.

                                                    In addition I think the paragraph from the book you quoted is an example of his unclear and poor writing.
                                                    Absolute and relative pitch are very different but he uses them both in the same paragraph sometimes together, sometimes separately, switching back and forth.

                                                    On that page I linked, he explains why he believes AP is necessary. I'm not saying I agree with him. I don't have a desire to memorize my pieces, so it's not relevant to my learning process.
                                                    What is his so called "reason" for thinking AP is necessary? I didn't see it on what you quoted or maybe just thought what he said was nonsense. I

                                                    It's non even clear if he is distinguishing between mental practice and memorization in his writing. I think almost everything he writes, regardless of the quality of the content, is poorly written.