Discussing Molly Gebrian (Splinter Discussion of "Molly Gebrian 7 Months Later")

SSgisela · 6 Jan

JB_PT I would also like to interject here about the overall tenor of some of the posts/posters.

I have followed this thread because I’m interested in the experiences of people who’ve invested the time and effort into learning about Gebrian’s work, and how it has worked out for them. I haven’t done so myself, but I’m nonetheless interested in fellow forum members’ experience with it.

Some of the posts here feel extremely dismissive not just of Gebrian’s work but of fellow forum members — with language that sounds like they’ve been duped into joining a cult or some such. If you’re not interested in the work, that’s totally fine. But I think those that are skeptical have expressed their skepticism plenty, and it’s getting to the point that there are posts that feel gratuitously nasty and trollish toward forum members who are just trying to share their experiences. You don’t have to engage.

If you have tried to apply the methods and they haven’t worked for you and you want to share, do so. My take on this thread was that it was a place to share what has worked and what has not, what has been difficult to implement, etc. But some of the posts that seem quite dismissive don’t seem to have engaged seriously with the work — and if you haven’t at the very least read through her book with an open mind (let alone given a good faith effort to implementing it in your own practice), I don’t see how it is fair to disparage her work (and the efforts of forum members who are trying to do so) out of hand.

Kkeystring · 6 Jan

Here is a story of the first changes I ever made to my practising which started it all for me. (Nothing to do with Molly).

I was a 3rd year violin student; had worked on the same piece for a month without moving forward. One day in disgust I turned my back on the music stand, and worked on "string changes", where you move the bow from one string to another. I looked for etudes with string changes and borrowed bits: made my own exercises - found the best way to change strings. That's all I did the whole week because I wanted nothing more to do with that piece. The difficulties, however, had been largely due to string changes. At my next lessons, I had to play the piece that I had not touched for an entire week - had not practised. When I played, it was vastly improved: teacher was astonished.

That is the first time I had ever practised that way: not literally working on the assigned piece. Major improvements in the piece I had not worked on.

The next occasion was a piece where I constantly got stuck on "measure X" - and I mean literally stuck: my fingers wouldn't lift. Every week in lessons we'd get up to m. X, try to get me to play it properly, go back to the beginning and get stuck again on m. x (anyone who knows about good practising will know what's wrong with that picture. ). One day I "went radical" - worked only on that one measure to find out note for note why my hand was getting stuck, how to unstick them, the optimal way of moving for those 8 notes. Once I had that motion, played the easy earlier notes, continue into m. X, and a bit past. ..... Then I made extra copies of the music; circled every passage that was similar (say transposed) - then the next difficult passage, etc. I worked on my coloured circles one by one. These chopped up small bits that barely seemed to be music, and felt guilty about the sacrilege. Except that this is what musicians who get somewhere do, and some teachers teach. Again, after going in circles for weeks, I got somewhere fast in a short time.

Those were my beginnings. Two incidents of working in an entirely different way, and getting improvements and successes that were greater, and over a shorter period of time. That's when I started seeking this out.

To me the "Molly story" is not necessarily about following everything that MG says. If anyone is in the rut of ways of working that are ineffective, then the idea of doings things differently is an idea beyond the specifics that she teaches. One might come up with something entirely different. For me it was the two incidents that I related, which happened out of sheer despair. "Hey, I did something radically different - didn't do what I believed I was supposed to do - and wow, that's interesting." It's a bit like Alice in the Looking Glass meeting the Queen of whatsit, and learning that she must walk away from the house in order to get to the house. (I was 8 when I read the book. That and the grin without a cat always got to my imagination.)

twocats · 7 Jan

Pallas Before you posted that video, I didn’t know how to practice anything

Awwwww, so glad sharing the videos helped you so much!

I did know some good practice techniques from my lessons a long time ago (such as slow practice) but there's a lot of new knowledge about "how to best learn" since I was a kid. My projects are big and if I can shave off a bunch of practice time, I have time to work on other music or do other life things. And also I could reduce risk of injury from practicing too much, too!

Animisha · 7 Jan

ShiroKuro I suspect it's the antithesis of things she espouses these days.

I am not sure. They rather seem to address different aspects. Suzuki stresses the importance of listening to music and learning to play before learning to read. But yes, there is also every day repetition, so that part is not the same as Molly's present practice recommendations.

Animisha · 7 Jan

ShiroKuro This is a little bit awkward for me, because I am a moderator on this forum and I’m also a general participant in this thread. I may call in the other mods if I think (or anyone else thinks) I can’t be both here…

I think you handle this all very well, not getting angry, but politely requesting (twice) that dismissive and derogatory labels are not used.

Animisha · 7 Jan

Sgisela Thank you for your very nice interjection!

Rranjit · 7 Jan

JB_PT The level of sarcasm being doled out here is really baffling. I'm having a hard time understanding why some of you are so spun up about this.

Agreed! Please refrain from doing this. People here have been tolerant of skepticism and contradictory opinions. It's fine to debate back and forth, but by being sarcastic and with name-calling you end up silencing people in the discussion and making the forum worse. A simple "I don't think Molly Gebrian is effective and I think it's overblown and here's why..." would have sufficed. There's no reason to be mean-spirited about it.

ShiroKuro · 7 Jan

Animisha ShiroKuro I suspect it's the antithesis of things she espouses these days.

I am not sure. They rather seem to address different aspects. Suzuki stresses the importance of listening to music and learning to play before learning to read. But yes, there is also every day repetition, so that part is not the same as Molly's present practice recommendations

I definitely don’t know enough about Suzuki methods really, so I shouldn’t be commenting much! I only know what I’ve heard from some piano players who had a Suzuki teacher in the past. So actually, I wonder if Suzuki method for strings is a little different from Suzuki method for piano…

Animisha · 7 Jan

ShiroKuro So actually, I wonder if Suzuki method for strings is a little different from Suzuki method for piano…

I think that it is very different. The Suzuki piano books are also quite boring.

ShiroKuro · 7 Jan

Animisha The Suzuki piano books are also quite boring.

Yikes, that’s never good!

PianoMonk · 7 Jan

ShiroKuro Not mean-spirited at all. I would like to see if those who follow Molly's methods can learn a new song in a week and play it better than those who do not follow Molly's methods.

My labeling is shorthand, how I feel about the whole thing, and some others on this forum feel the same.
I guess this forum is open for comments, but not if a select group decides it's not.

It appears, to me, that those who cling to Molly's scripture are perhaps just a little too defensive when it comes to hearing criticism. People may use sarcasm as a subtle way to point out opposing views, or that the concept in question may not float everyone's boat. Judging by the reaction of those who think Molly is spot on, it certainly feels like when cult members are asked difficult questions. Therefore I think those labels, Mollyism, Mollyites, Mollyists, and any other way one might call it, are accurate. I think Molly's "teachings" are a long winded detour to conventional practice methods propped up with pseudo-science psychobabble. Others, obviously, think otherwise.
If I am kicked out of the forum for what I've said, it will be the equivalent of burning me at the stake for being a heretic, and will prove what I've been saying about the whole thing all along.

ShiroKuro · 7 Jan

@PianoMonk please note that I'm not the only one pushing back on your post and your choice of tone. Take a look up the thread if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Please note that the problem is not commenting on the forum or in this thread. The problem is when you move from criticizing an approach to criticizing, and directing sarcasm at, the people who are discussing said approach.

For the record, I am speaking here in my position as moderator. This thread has been flagged by other members and people have posted directly in the thread about their concerns.

So I'm asking you to take that to heart.

SStub · 7 Jan

PianoMonk I would like to see if those who follow Molly's methods can learn a new song in a week and play it better than those who do not follow Molly's methods.

Have you read any of her material? If you had, you would know that she nowhere says anything about learning a piece (or song, in your parlance) in a week. As a number of people have stated, the time to learn a piece is not shortened--there are, after all, breaks of days and weeks built in--but it is more efficient, i.e., more pieces can be learned or, for longer works, sections or movements can be practiced as separate pieces.

Kkeystring · 7 Jan

PianoMonk I would like to see if those who follow Molly's methods can learn a new song in a week and play it better than those who do not follow Molly's methods.

I addressed the practicality and sense of that. Did you see my post? I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

PianoMonk · 7 Jan

Ok, ok... I give... It all started as a bit of tongue-in-cheek wind-up. I thought some of you would see the humor in the religious/cult parallels, gimmicks of the past, etc. But then, such resistance... well it was hard to resist. I've probably made some enemies for life, like people do when they find out you're a Buddhist, not a Baptist, or that you voted for the other guy. Sorry that some took offense.

Yes, I've read everything of Molly's that was available for free. How do you think I formed my opinion of what she's offering?

The contest idea (which I still think would be fun) was/is to see if learning a song, (something like Mile's Davis' Blue In Green) would be played any better by those who find Molly's methods useful than those who do not. Admittedly, not a very scientific exercise; just a bit of fun. And to see if some would embrace the label that I sarcastically applied to those who subscribe to Molly's, er teachings, which I will not repeat here under threat of moderator, or potential banishment from planet PianoTell. (Although, I could probably benefit from finding a few extra hours a week.)

I see now that we can say, "Boy, that's one ugly hat." But can't say, "You have lousy taste for buying such an ugly hat." I'm fine with that. I've said before, that I'm glad some of you find Molly's stuff useful. I hope it gives you what you need to learn to play the piano.

Nightowl · 7 Jan

PianoMonk

If I am kicked out of the forum for what I've said, it will be the equivalent of burning me at the stake for being a heretic, and will prove what I've been saying about the whole thing all along.

Exactly. When people are so quick to shut down opposing views it is reminiscent of dictatorships who expel or imprison people with dissenting political views. It's strange that a site which is based in America, a place known as "the land of the free", is not keen on free speech unless people tow the party line. Anyway, you need not worry @PianoMonk because I don't think you're the real target here - that's me, obviously. Because I committed two heinous crimes 1) I suggested that maybe if people spent less time "Mollying" (a term used by Pallas upthread) and more time practising, they might progress just as well, and 2) I dared to laugh at your wry humour and agree with your very well worded and logical posts.

As for labels, MG fans are not alone in being labelled, this happens with many fan groups. For instance, Gary Numan fans are known as "Numanoids" and Taylor Swift fans are labelled "Swifties" - labels which those fans happily embrace. I've never heard any of them taking offence at those labels, instead they embrace their monikers with good humour (something sorely lacking on this thread).

Kkeystring · 7 Jan

PianoMonk ..... to see if learning a song, (something like Mile's Davis' Blue In Green) would be played any better by those .....

I don't think you read my post addressing the practicality/sense of this and you probably can't find it, so here it is again.

(1) Everybody here has different abilities, different backgrounds, different experience. So if somebody who started piano half a year ago, and someone else who has a solid background with 10 years of study, both participate, the results will reflect that background, rather than recently embracing a new approach or not.

(2) The actual question is whether an individual has been practising in an ineffective, time-consuming manner with few results - and if that individual can start having better results over a shorter timespan. The only competition you can have is an individual person's past and present vis-a-vis different approaches they are using. It's "person A present" vs. "person A past" --- -not person A vs. person B.

Does this make sense?

I am not following MG's method because what she presents includes things I learned, and is missing things I learned. The goals addressed are different than the goals that I have. What remains is that if anyone has been doing ineffective things, then changing that may improve things. It may not be those particular things.

PianoMonk · 7 Jan

Ithaca Please re-read my last post. (Which may very well be the last)
Here's hoping that all of you find ways, any way at all, to find joy in learning to play the piano.

Kkeystring · 7 Jan

PianoMonk (something like Mile's Davis' Blue In Green)

Immediately - I'd SUCK recording something like that. I have no feel for jazz; I'm so square that a table appears round next to me and while by now I know things like to "not clap on the wrong beat", I have feel for it. My performance in comparison to yours, or someone who grew up with this kind of music and owns the language, would not reflect how effective my practice approach is, compared to yours or theirs. It would reflect that background, and those (lacking) abilities.

That's a more concrete example of what I was trying to say in my previous post.

Kkeystring · 7 Jan

PianoMonk Please re-read my last post. (Which may very well be the last)
Here's hoping that all of you find ways, any way at all, to find joy in learning to play the piano.

I've read yours. But have you read mine?