Never again learning a wrong note!

Animisha · 2024-12-03T08:52:40+00:00

Okay, I am a bit overenthusiastic right now. But I have bought the Synthesia app and after a bit of a hassle it works like a dream! iternabe This also beg...

Animisha

candela but I was just wondering if you have also tried or considered more sheet-music centric apps, like Piano Marvel and probably others.

I did try Piano Marvel for a free month, and I didn't like it very much. Also, Synthesia costs 29 usd one time only, and I can use it forever, which is so much cheaper than Synthesia.

candela My thinking is that those would force you to actively find the right keys
With Synthesia, the bars stop falling down when you make a mistake, and they won't start falling until you play the correct note, so that is the same.

candela

Animisha I did try Piano Marvel for a free month, and I didn't like it very much. Also, Synthesia costs 29 usd one time only, and I can use it forever, which is so much cheaper than Synthesia.

That makes sense! I actually also tried Piano Marvel for the free test month when I started out, but like you decided against signing up for a paid subscription.

Animisha

Sophia Certainly, if Animisha doesn't mind the slight thread sidestep

Nemas problemas! 🙂

By the way, I can see that Alfred's deliberately spelled the chords in the way they did. One letter of the musical alphabet is skipped between each note. This kind of reasoning really makes one disliking music theory, to put it mildly.

MRC

Animisha By the way, I can see that Alfred's deliberately spelled the chords in the way they did. One letter of the musical alphabet is skipped between each note. This kind of reasoning really makes one disliking music theory, to put it mildly.

Music theory is fascinating and beautiful. This is an example of it being badly misapplied.

I won't derail this thread further with an in-depth discussion of the subtleties of the diminished 7th chord. Suffice it to say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and whoever notated that example blindly followed the rule about skipping one letter between each note when starting from the root, and decided (wrongly) that the root was always the bottom note of each broken chord. In the the context of this harmonic progression, both these bars are inversions of Bdim, notated B, D, F, Ab, which resolves to C7 in the third bar.

keystring

MRC Now I've seen the whole intro, I would say the best notation would be to replace all the G#s in keystring's version with Abs. This makes the most sense as a harmonic progression.

Would you do that for BOTH measures? The original using different notes for m. 1 and m. 2 even though they are the same chord. So a "Bdim7" in two "inversions", both times? (B, D, F, Ab as the "root position" version. That would make sense to me.

(I'm supposed to be working on a rush translation but needed a short break.)

ranjit

I was thinking about this and I feel like it's really not that useful. A few small mislearned notes make basically zero difference in an amateur performance, and it can be like a crutch. But if it makes you happy, go for it!

Animisha

ranjit A few small mislearned notes make basically zero difference in an amateur performance

If I would feel this way, I would never again practise.

ShiroKuro

Animisha ranjit A few small mislearned notes make basically zero difference in an amateur performance

If I would feel this way, I would never again practise.

This is fascinating to me, and I think it shows how many different perspectives there are to approaching piano study.

I definitely agree more with @ranjit here. Certainly we want to learn the music correctly, and none of us set out to play something that sounds horrid. But there are other, often more important considerations than the actual notes on the page.

First, a mislearned note can be unlearned and the correct note re-learned (or, not even "re"learned, but learned for the first time). There's just no reason to be afraid of learning a wrong note. It happens.

Second, a 100% note-perfect performance is out of reach for almost all pianists, esp. as the music gets more complex. Even for professional pianists. And most of us are not professional nor do we have unlimited time to devote to our piano studies. That doesn't mean we can't make enjoyable music.

Which brings me to what I think is more crucial, namely that, in my opinion, a note-perfect performance is far less important, and less compelling, than a musical performance.

And rather than making myself rigid in the pursuit of note-perfection, I'm much more interested in making myself mentally (and physically) supple so that when I inevitably do play a wrong note (or miss a note), the music carries me through -- or I carry the music through, such that it does not impact the enjoyment of the music.

Lastly, we should all give ourselves a bit more grace.

@Sophia I know you said this with smileys, but

It's one thing to be a bloody beginner but that doesn't mean I'd want to be bloody stupid

I suspect you would never call another person stupid for learning a wrong note, so please don't imply such about yourself either.

Playing, or learning, a wrong note does not make anyone stupid. It makes us human. More importantly, it's a sign that we're doing it. We're learning piano.

The only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't actually do anything.

Sophia I also take the learning seriously. I would not be happy to learn wrong notes or rhythms or techniques and would always be grateful if those were pointed out to me.

And certainly, all of us here take our pianistic pursuits very seriously (otherwise we wouldn't spend our free time on a piano forum!)

And yes, I generally appreciate having a mistake pointed out to me if I wasn't aware of it. I do, after all, continue to take piano lessons despite having played the piano for over 25 years now. (Of course my goal in those lessons isn't to have wrong notes pointed out to me....)

But we should not be so hard on ourselves.

Speaking of being hard on someone, I don't want @Animisha or @Sophia to feel ganged up on here in this thread, but I think those of us who have played piano for a long time have legitimate concerns about the impacts of a tool like Synthesia.

And now I have some concerns about the amount of pressure you both seem to be putting on yourselves.

I have heard you both play, I've heard multiple pieces by @Animisha that were truly lovely and well-played, and @Sophia your recital piece (the rag) was fantastic!

No one can put together these kinds of performances without a lot of hard work and a generous amount of talent. You both have a lot to be proud of.

So please be kind to yourselves. And don't make wrong notes into some kind of boogeyman.

(Ok I'll get down off my soapbox...)

ranjit

Animisha ranjit A few small mislearned notes make basically zero difference in an amateur performance

If I would feel this way, I would never again practise.

I think my reply was a little too short and didn't go into enough nuance.

I personally don't care too much about a few mislearned notes. I focus far more on the "musical" aspect, which I think of as being separate in some sense from note accuracy. That said, 98% of the time, I read and learn the right notes from the page -- but if I get one inversion wrong here or there, or one note in a melody that sounds off, I don't fret too much personally. Nor do teachers, although they make sure to point it out and ask me to correct it. Am I saying that is the right way to do things? No. Well, kind of. Often, I find that amateur playing is at 20% when it comes to musicality and 97% when it comes to note accuracy. Improving the musical effect from 20% to 30% would do far more for the music and for personal development (and is harder!) than improving the note accuracy from 97% to 99%.

I had a friend who was in his second year of learning the violin tell me that a piece is not the same "piece" if it has any incorrect notes. That is the kind of trap a lot of amateurs fall into that I'm trying to warn against. Just make sure not to miss the forest for the trees, and note accuracy is a small part of what makes good playing.

Another thing that I wanted convey was that, for most amateurs, it makes more sense to learn more pieces, rather than aim for "perfection" in any sense for single pieces. Time is in a way limited, and I find that learning the piano makes this painfully obvious. There is so much repertoire to learn, and so little time to do it. Time spent obsessing over perfection is usually better spent learning new pieces. The thing is that once you gain experience, your note accuracy while learning new music from the sheets will be much higher at a baseline. I haven't done anything special to make sure the notes I learn from the page are correct, and don't even really double check the notes after I learn them, but they are usually right (maybe 1-2 mistakes per page or less, which my teachers point out anyway). Your accuracy scales up so much with experience that more experience with a wider variety of pieces will do so much more than trying to "perfect" certain pieces -- and it really doesn't matter much while you're performing anyway! The primary thing that people listen to is "musical feeling". I have seen students get away with metaphorical murder if their playing sounds compelling. Of course, if you are playing for an audition, competition, or major concert, you should make sure to be as perfect as possible, but in most ordinary situations, you will be the only one who will pay attention to wrong notes assuming they aren't too egregious. So, it makes more sense to focus on musicality and quantity of pieces imo.

(My teachers often expect me to learn all the notes correctly, but they are trying to push me to aim for a professional level so it's a little different. They will expect that of you if you are a conservatory student or similar.)

Now, I actually think using synthesia to double check your accuracy is a good idea. I have used synthesia quite a lot in the past -- and while I don't use it much anymore, I think it has its place. I would not learn from synthesia initially for a few reasons:

If your sight reading is at all decent, it slows you down for anything except the simplest songs.
It can act as a crutch, making you avoid reading which will slow you down in the long run. This is assuming you are planning to play seriously in the long run, I am totally fine with beginners in their first year learning from synthesia just to "jump start" things and for playing to be "fun".
I have seen that they have a lot of wrong notes, almost always (so still be cautious about using them to double check accuracy!).
They lack information about dynamics, articulation, note length, etc., and you need to develop your skill at translating this information when you sight read.

Personally, I usually use recordings to check my note accuracy, because my ear is now developed to the point where I can hear most wrong notes from a recording. But it took a few years and a lot of effort to get the point where I could do that.

Sophia

I feel that way too Animisha 😄 Despite me clowning around a lot (after all, a hobby is supposed to be fun), I also take the learning seriously. I would not be happy to learn wrong notes or rhythms or techniques and would always be grateful if those were pointed out to me.

It's one thing to be a bloody beginner but that doesn't mean I'd want to be bloody stupid 😁😁😁

Nightowl

Sophia Despite me clowning around a lot (after all, a hobby is supposed to be fun), I also take the learning seriously. I would not be happy to learn wrong notes or rhythms or techniques and would always be grateful if those were pointed out to me.

I think I know what you're saying - the Synthesia app points out errors in play, in the way that a teacher might do, before the errors become ingrained. So, the app could be useful in that way for us bloody beginners, to stop us replaying bloody stupid mistakes. 😁

Us BBs need all the help we can get, so if it works for Animisha, maybe the app has value as a prompt facility. Not that I'll be using it, as I remain a dumb dino who prefers sheet music. 🙂

Sophia

ShiroKuro I suspect you would never call another person stupid for learning a wrong note, so please don't imply such about yourself either.

I would never, ever, EVER call another person stupid, period. But I can call myself what I want to call myself 😃 And I didn't call myself stupid (not even jokingly), I said for me (personally and only for ME), I'd feel stupid if I stubbornly insisted on being wrong after it's been proven that I am in fact wrong 🙂 I hope that clears it up.

This actually reminds me of a continuing "discussion" back in another forum, if I may be so bold to refer to another place. There seemed to be a few participants there who kept on insisting that there is only one "proper" way to learn piano, and only if you are 100% committed to classical. If you are not interested in learning classical, it seemed that the recommended action would be to just use lead sheets and have fun with your "songs". I personally think there are many more nuances to that. I am not 100% into classical, but I still want to learn piano "properly". That also doesn't mean there is only one way, I mean we just had some great discussion about two method books. I think both those methods, as well as ones not discussed, are great aids in learning piano.

It also doesn't mean I'm hard on myself, not even close. It just means that if I am committed to learning something, I might as well try to learn it right. Making mistakes is fine! But once you KNOW you made a mistake, I think it would be best to correct it. I don't use Synthesia for that, but if that is what helps Animisha, then why not...

And also I don't feel ganged up at all 😁 I'm really enjoying this discussion... and I speak my mind just like I expect everyone else to do. I actually don't disagree with (m)any things said here. I definitely, absolutely, categorically do NOT want to be argumentative... so if you feel I wasn't kind enough, I sincerely apologize for giving the wrong impression. It's all good really!

Animisha

ShiroKuro a 100% note-perfect performance is out of reach for almost all pianists, esp. as the music gets more complex. Even for professional pianists. And most of us are not professional nor do we have unlimited time to devote to our piano studies. That doesn't mean we can't make enjoyable music.

I fully agree with you!

ShiroKuro I don't want @Animisha or @Sophia to feel ganged up on here in this thread,

I don't feel ganged up. But I was surprised at the discussion. I thought most reactions would be, wow how good!

ShiroKuro I have heard you both play, I've heard multiple pieces by @Animisha that were truly lovely and well-played, and @Sophia your recital piece (the rag) was fantastic!

Thank you so much! 🤩

ShiroKuro

Sophia But I can call myself what I want to call myself 😃

Yes, of course.

And I didn't call myself stupid (not even jokingly), I said for me (personally and only for ME), I'd feel stupid if I stubbornly insisted on being wrong after it's been proven that I am in fact wrong 🙂 I hope that clears it up.

It does clear it up, and of course no one is insisting on playing wrong notes, nor is anyone arguing that it's ok to just say "well, I know this is supposed to F# but I'm going to keep playing the G."

Nevertheless, I do think people are too hard on themselves when they say they feel stupid for playing or learning wrong notes. And you are far from the only person to make that comment. Fear of wrong notes can be paralyzing for some people, and part of that comes from this idea that it's a failure or sign of stupidity, when in fact it's neither.

So that's why I keep harping on it. But I'll let it go, obviously to each her own.

Sophia There seemed to be a few participants there who kept on insisting that there is only one "proper" way to learn piano, and only if you are 100% committed to classical.

I definitely do not believe that there is only "one correct way," nor do I think that classical is the only way. But I do think there are some approaches that can end up being counter productive.

If you are not interested in learning classical, it seemed that the recommended action would be to just use lead sheets and have fun with your "songs". I personally think there are many more nuances to that. I am not 100% into classical, but I still want to learn piano "properly".

I agree with you here as well. There are many different ways to define proper. Just because someone doesn't play within the classical literature doesn't mean they can't benefit from learning to read music. I don't play within the classical literature, but I made it a point very early to focus on learning to read music. I don't know if that's what you mean by "learning properly," but certainly my own bias is in favor of developing competence at reading musical notation, whatever the genre.

At the same time, learning to play from lead sheets is a perfectly fine thing to do, if what one wants to do is be able to play from lead sheets. If one wants to play a Beethoven sonata, then, in fact, spending a lot of time with lead sheets is not going to get that person very far.

Beyond that, it becomes a more nuanced discussion.

Sophia if that is what helps Animisha, then why not...

I think the "why not" is because a lot of people feel like it's not going to help her in the long run. That is basically my concern, but whether that concern is founded or not remains to be seen. After all, @Animisha already knows how to read music -- quite well in fact, I would argue. So her use of Synthesia is not the same as someone relying on it when they don't know how to read.

And let's be honest, all of us who are arguing against the use of Synthesia are people who do not use Synthesia. 😅 So it's no wonder if @Animisha is not keen to take our advice! 😃

But back to this:

Sophia But once you KNOW you made a mistake, I think it would be best to correct it.

I read that at first and thought "what on earth is she talking about" (apologies! but that was my first reaction). But then I realized that must be how it sounded, that @ranjit and I were suggesting one doesn't have to correct one's mistakes. But that's not my point, or approach, at all.

If I have mislearned something, I most definitely strive to relearn it correctly as quickly as possible. And I spend a lot of time and effort trying to figure out how to more efficiently learn music correctly (hence my interest in Gebrian's work, for example).

But there are a lot of times when I'm playing something and I play a wrong note, make a mistake, in a piece of music that I have polished and I'm playing for someone else or I'm trying to get a recording. What I am saying, and I believe what @ranjit is saying (although I don't want to put words in his mouth) is that, at the end of the day, these don't matter all that much, and shouldn't matter all that much. They're not nearly as important as playing musically, and while it is certainly important to strive to play correctly and avoid wrong notes, it is as important, if not more, to learn how to play through mistakes and continue playing musically despite them.

So although I am saying that wrong notes don't matter (in the grand scheme of things), I am not saying "you don't have to correct wrong notes." It's a subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

Sophia if you feel I wasn't kind enough, I sincerely apologize for giving the wrong impression.

Not at all, you don't need to apologize, but thank you! I mainly was worried that you weren't being kind enough to yourself 😃

candela

I agree with ShiroKuro that there are more important things than wrong notes. However, I also believe that there is a difference between more or less inevitable slips in the playing and genuinely not being certain if what you played was according to the sheet music or not. As I've been interpreting this topic it is about being notified about mistakes that would go unnoticed otherwise. It seems like a good approach to work on the ability to recognize and self-correct mistakes? If one isn't aware of the mistakes it seems like a catch 22.

I really wish I had something useful to contribute, but my dear mom began teaching me to read sheet music already as a toddler, so I can't actually recall what it was like before knowing if I made mistakes it not. Still make lots of them, but they don't go unnoticed to me.

Sophia

candela As I've been interpreting this topic it is about being notified about mistakes that would go unnoticed otherwise.

I can't speak for Animisha, naturally, but that is exactly how I read the topic as well. It's not about making mistakes, heck, we all do. But obviously I'm not a fluent reader (yet), so taking the above example of Classy Rag, I misread the F initially and my ears filled in all other other missing notes without even attempting to "decipher" them properly. End result: I played the whole caboodle wrong! So I too interpreted Animasha's "need" for Synthesia as just an aid to discover such before it gets too ingrained into the muscle memory.

In my case, it was actually surprisingly easy to correct once I was made aware of it... so that is why I agree with the ones who said "just let it happen" and it will sort itself eventually. But I also agree with Animasha that it's nicer to catch it before that happens, and I'm ever so pleased she found a way to help her with that (in lack of a teacher or fellow forum participant pointing it out, she found Synthesia).

That is why I was surprised to read that some seemed to imply that means being too hard on oneself, because that couldn't be further beside the point. I think that overall I'm pretty relaxed in my learning - but it still doesn't mean I'd be happy to learn things wrongly 😃

Ok, I said enough, hahahahaha, this topic is way too nice for soap boxes!

Whoops, cross posted with you @ShiroKuro - I think that means the passion is showing 😂

ShiroKuro , I do think people are too hard on themselves when they say they feel stupid for playing or learning wrong notes. And you are far from the only person to make that comment. Fear of wrong notes can be paralyzing for some people, and part of that comes from this idea that it's a failure or sign of stupidity, when in fact it's neither.

But Shiro, I did not make that comment. Not even close. I never said I feel stupid for playing a wrong note (though reading back what I DID say, it could come across that way). However, I INSIST that I meant to say that I'd feel stupid if I STUBBORNLY insisted on STAYING wrong, after knowing it IS wrong 🙂 Sorry to harp on, but that distinction is super important to me!

ShiroKuro I read that at first and thought "what on earth is she talking about" (apologies! but that was my first reaction).

Haha I hear you... I get that a lot. My brain fills in all the missing gaps in what I'm trying to say, so it comes out of my fingers as a cryptic message that doesn't even come close to the real meaning 🙂 But I hope that at least now it's clear I never meant to say that reading notes incorrectly is "stupid" somehow... because it isn't. I actually agree that it is possible to be too hard one oneself and I have seen examples of that for sure, but I assure you that this is not the case for me!

Animisha

candela As I've been interpreting this topic it is about being notified about mistakes that would go unnoticed otherwise. It seems like a good approach to work on the ability to recognize and self-correct mistakes?

Exactly. And I feel that getting feedback when making a mistake is very helpful. It is interesting to see the kind of mistakes I make when learning a new piece. Assuming repeated patterns is a big one for me.

Animisha

ShiroKuro Nevertheless, I do think people are too hard on themselves when they say they feel stupid for playing or learning wrong notes.

That is a very good point. In one piece, my teacher pointed out that I had played A natural instead of A flat, and I know very well the piece is in C minor. I find it so embarrassing!

Animisha

Sophia It's not about making mistakes,

Exactly! It is about learning wrong notes.

Sophia So I too interpreted Animasha's "need" for Synthesia as just an aid to discover such before it gets too ingrained into the muscle memory.

Yes!

iternabe

I always feel this discussion is not about playing a note wrong, but about reading a note wrong.

Playing a note wrong and immediately realize the mistake does not worry me much. I know it’s a mistake, and I can figure out how to avoid it the next time.

Reading a note wrong and not realizing it do worry me. Having a way to alert me of such mistake is certainly important, be it by a teacher, by a software, or by myself listening/reading. But the most important part, I think, is to figure out WHY I read it wrong, because otherwise similar mistake may happen again and again.

Animisha

iternabe I always feel this discussion is not about playing a note wrong, but about reading a note wrong.

That is correct, the title is "Never again learning a wrong note". Not about playing a wrong note.

Animisha

PS I am sorry, I am too tired to read. I will respond tomorrow. 😎

Sophia

Ranjit, I agree with everything you said. But I also think it's important to note that nor Animisha, nor myself, hinted at any time that note accuracy is the only important thing there is. Again I can't speak for anyone else, but that is not how I read this topic. I did get a little defensive personally because I feel the topic is being taken out of proportion. I'm actually the only amateur in my entire family, so... I know a thing or two about these things as well ^_^

My main participation in this topic was to support Animisha in her enthusiastic account on using Synthesia (something I don't know anything about) because apparently it helps her identify errors. It seems to be morphing into a yes-no situation - and I'm sort of sorry I got involved at all now.

Wanting to learn notes correctly does not clash with being musical - one can (and should) attempt both. I normally hear it when I read something wrong, but I agreed with her that there are some situations where you don't notice it... and then it can be helpful to have a tool like Synthesia, I would imagine.

Let's not make this topic into more than it needs be 🙂

keystring

Sam I could tell you how a 7th and a 6th sound different, but that is not going to help you when you have a different interval. Generally speaking, you listen as you play, and when something doesn't sound right, you check to see if you have the right notes - it is as simple as that. You are going along and then crunch - that's not right - better check.

Which is something synthesia doesn't do for you. It tells you visually that you have played the wrong note, when what you need is to recognize by ear when you have something wrong. You learn to do that yourself by listening as you play.

@Sam - the general premise is good and I agree with it. There are other factors, however. I've been interacting with my main teacher and friend for over a decade, and piano teaching is a frequent topic. What we may not think about or realize is that people's perceptions and abilities are different, and these abilities also change and grow. You may be able to hear that a note sounds wrong, while the other person doesn't have that ability. In teaching, being aware of this is critical. In my own growth, there are things I could not hear and now can, and there are still things I can't hear, even when they are pointed out to me. Or you may hear well in some contexts, but not others.

"when something doesn't sound right" presupposes the ability to hear that it doesn't sound right. Part of the teacher's job would also be to start waking up those senses by various means. Where you're your own teacher, (we all are to some degree) you also try to wake them up. You might use tools to do so.

As a personal example, one weakness were aspects of time. One thing I discovered is that I could hear when two notes were not in sync, but I could not hear which was before the other one. It was like an audial dyslexia. If I recorded my playing, and watched the bumps I could see what I couldn't hear (which sound came first). Watching while listening, one sense (seeing) helped develop another sense (hearing).

I can picture the Synthesia angle as either being a crutch, or becoming a tool for better reading (and maybe developing the ear?) if used judiciously in a good way. If it's still needed a year from now, then maybe not as good.

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