Never again learning a wrong note!

Animisha · 2024-12-03T08:52:40+00:00

Okay, I am a bit overenthusiastic right now. But I have bought the Synthesia app and after a bit of a hassle it works like a dream! iternabe This also beg...

rogerch

I’ve never tried Synthesia. I understand it’s like Guitar Hero for piano. I can see it could be helpful at catching mistakes. If you are concerned about becoming overly reliant on Synthesia I suggest watching to see if it’s catching fewer mistakes as time goes on. Eventually you may not need it anymore.

I’ve been sight reading daily for over a year now and I find myself detecting wrong notes because the note I played is not what I’m expecting to hear, even if it fits in harmonically. I don’t have perfect pitch and I don’t feel like my relative pitch is really strong but somehow just by doing tons of sight reading my ear is getting better. I suspect this is a natural side effect of lots of sight reading.

ShiroKuro

rogerch I’ve been sight reading daily for over a year now and I find myself detecting wrong notes because the note I played is not what I’m expecting to hear, even if it fits in harmonically

Are you sightreading pieces that are familiar to you? I don’t mean, scores you’ve seen, but say pieces you generally know of as a listener?

I’m pretty sure that with music I don’t know well, if I’m reading a new score, my ability to detect wrong notes is pretty low if the note fits harmonically. I have always felt my ear is my weakest skill. (And I always felt that’s why I became so good at reading, because I cannot play by ear)

BartK

Sophia Now if they hadn't pointed that out to me, I would have played incorrect notes. I challenge anyone who doesn't know the piece well to notice it without the written music 😁

Well, diminished 7ths are not really tonal in the sense that the chord is completely symetric and doesn't give a clue about the tonal center. It's one reason composers use it to modulate. So, unless you have perfect pitch you can't distinguish between different diminished 7ths by ear without context.

You played the second one a whole tone higher but I had to look at your hands to see it.

Anyway, IMO the notation is really bad. It's the same diminished 7th chord but inverted one note lower but for some reason they decided to write it in flats to make it look different.

Animisha

ShiroKuro But in the context of playing a piece, esp one that you don't know, if both the 6th and the 7th sound ok (say because in one part of the music it's a 6th and in another part it's a 7th), then it's going to be very hard to notice that you're not playing the right one at the right time.

This is it.
Once I am familiar with the music, I can hear it.

And my fear has always been that I learn it incorrectly from the start, and as Sophia says, it sounds good to my ears, but it is not. Actually, this situation has also happened more than once, ever since I started to play a little bit more complex music. As a beginner, I heard all mistakes.

So I am very happy with Synthesia, and more relaxed, when learning new pieces with strange sounds. ☺️

ShiroKuro

Animisha and more relaxed

This is very important.

Although my personal feeling is, “who cares about learning wrong notes, I’ll correct them over time,” that’s my approach and not everyone feels that way. If using Synthesia helps you feel more relaxed, that helps your practice in all kinds of ways.

rogerch

ShiroKuro rogerch I’ve been sight reading daily for over a year now and I find myself detecting wrong notes because the note I played is not what I’m expecting to hear, even if it fits in harmonically

Are you sightreading pieces that are familiar to you? I don’t mean, scores you’ve seen, but say pieces you generally know of as a listener?

Most of what I sightread is unfamiliar and I still hear wrong notes. Sometimes I read the note correctly but play a different note. I look at my hand and it’s not where I thought it was! There are so many things that can go wrong but it’s fun to improve 🙂

ShiroKuro

rogerch I look at my hand and it’s not where I thought it was!

I love it when that happens! 😅

Sam

Animisha I could tell you how a 7th and a 6th sound different, but that is not going to help you when you have a different interval. Generally speaking, you listen as you play, and when something doesn't sound right, you check to see if you have the right notes - it is as simple as that. You are going along and then crunch - that's not right - better check.

Which is something synthesia doesn't do for you. It tells you visually that you have played the wrong note, when what you need is to recognize by ear when you have something wrong. You learn to do that yourself by listening as you play.

BartK

Sam I could tell you how a 7th and a 6th sound different, but that is not going to help you when you have a different interval. Generally speaking, you listen as you play, and when something doesn't sound right, you check to see if you have the right notes - it is as simple as that. You are going along and then crunch - that's not right - better check.

Which is something synthesia doesn't do for you. It tells you visually that you have played the wrong note, when what you need is to recognize by ear when you have something wrong. You learn to do that yourself by listening as you play.

Interesting discussion. I can see the appeal of using an app like Synthesia but I also feel like you that it is a crutch.

Your comment made me think what if there was an app that used actual music notation instead of falling bars and highlighted wrong notes in red. For the ear it could also play the wrong note with a different sound so you would notice it more easily - e.g. suddently you hear a trumpet or some other funky sound like cymbals. Something for app developers to think about.

Still I feel that this should be used only for a time and with the goal of eventually being able to notice the wrong notes without any help, like training wheels on a bicycle.

Animisha

Sam I could tell you how a 7th and a 6th sound different, but that is not going to help you when you have a different interval. [...] You are going along and then crunch - that's not right - better check.

Sam, I know how a 7th and a 6th sound different. The thing is - if the score says a 7th and I misread it, I play the 6th and it does not crunch. And I happily learn the 6th, only to have a teacher weeks later say, you realist that this is a 7th?

This is what Synthesia does for me! It stops moving when I play this 6th that sounds good.

keystring

Sam I could tell you how a 7th and a 6th sound different, but that is not going to help you when you have a different interval. Generally speaking, you listen as you play, and when something doesn't sound right, you check to see if you have the right notes - it is as simple as that. You are going along and then crunch - that's not right - better check.

Which is something synthesia doesn't do for you. It tells you visually that you have played the wrong note, when what you need is to recognize by ear when you have something wrong. You learn to do that yourself by listening as you play.

@Sam - the general premise is good and I agree with it. There are other factors, however. I've been interacting with my main teacher and friend for over a decade, and piano teaching is a frequent topic. What we may not think about or realize is that people's perceptions and abilities are different, and these abilities also change and grow. You may be able to hear that a note sounds wrong, while the other person doesn't have that ability. In teaching, being aware of this is critical. In my own growth, there are things I could not hear and now can, and there are still things I can't hear, even when they are pointed out to me. Or you may hear well in some contexts, but not others.

"when something doesn't sound right" presupposes the ability to hear that it doesn't sound right. Part of the teacher's job would also be to start waking up those senses by various means. Where you're your own teacher, (we all are to some degree) you also try to wake them up. You might use tools to do so.

As a personal example, one weakness were aspects of time. One thing I discovered is that I could hear when two notes were not in sync, but I could not hear which was before the other one. It was like an audial dyslexia. If I recorded my playing, and watched the bumps I could see what I couldn't hear (which sound came first). Watching while listening, one sense (seeing) helped develop another sense (hearing).

I can picture the Synthesia angle as either being a crutch, or becoming a tool for better reading (and maybe developing the ear?) if used judiciously in a good way. If it's still needed a year from now, then maybe not as good.

MRC

BartK Still I feel that this should be used only for a time and with the goal of eventually being able to notice the wrong notes without any help, like training wheels on a bicycle.

Exactly. It's a tool, like a metronome. If you always play with a metronome, maybe you won't develop your inner pulse enough. You should first work work on the feeling of steady pulse, and then use the metronome to control how steady you really are, and make you notice where you rush or drag. Now you can go back to playing without the metronome, working specifically on the pulse in these passages.

Same here: you should work on your musical ear, learning to hear to the differences between different chords and concentrating on really listening to what you are playing. Then you can use an app like Synthesia to see if you are playing wrong notes which you didn't notice. Now you can go back to playing without the app, concentrating on hearing the differences between the right and wrong versions.

Animisha

BartK what if there was an app that used actual music notation instead of falling bars and highlighted wrong notes in red.

Synthesia does this as well. I think you can even remove the falling bars. I have them because in a corner of my eye, I can check that they still move.

BartK Still I feel that this should be used only for a time and with the goal of eventually being able to notice the wrong notes without any help, like training wheels on a bicycle.

Yes, when learning a new and unfamiliar piece, so I don't learn the wrong notes. 😎

Animisha

MRC Then you can use an app like Synthesia to see if you are playing wrong notes which you didn't notice. Now you can go back to playing without the app, concentrating on hearing the differences between the right and wrong versions.
(Animisha's italics)

You got it. 👍

MRC

Sophia Of course they are a much better sight reader than I am, so not even five minutes later they told me that I played the second bar of the intro wrong. Sheet music:

I'm wondering why somebody chose this way of notating what is in fact just the same diminished chord in a different inversion. Could you post the rest of the intro?

keystring

MRC I'm wondering why somebody chose this way of notating what is in fact just the same diminished chord in a different inversion. Could you post the rest of the intro?

(also @Sophia )

The way there is a "circle all the ....." on top, I'm guessing it's a teaching piece, teaching about the dim7, and they're sticking with root position so as to "not confuse". Maybe because in the next measure we'd end up with an augmented 2nd which may look/be (considered) confusing? But in their choice, all those accidentals makes it harder to read.

These are the same notes enharmonically and I think we can quickly see that they are the same notes/same chords, so less chance of making a mistake. Is this how you were picturing it, MRC?

Sophia

MRC Could you post the rest of the intro?

Certainly, if Animisha doesn't mind the slight thread sidestep 🙂 Here's a scan of the complete page:

ShiroKuro

So I just started a piece that is giving me a problem not unlike what @Animisha described when she started this thread.

Check out the parts circled in red:

You can see how it repeats throughout the piece, first the RH doesn’t play on the down beat of the measure after the BAB sequence, the second time the RH plays an A on the downbeat. It’s like an automatic physical reaction just to play that A on the down beat, and harmonically and rhythmically, playing the A doesn’t “sound” wrong.

The piece is sort of moderately uptempo, so it moves along at a nice clip, and for some reason, it feels easier to play on the down beat. So I guess I was playing that A on the downbeat more often than not, including in places where it’s not written. I didn’t notice it, and on Wednesday, my teacher said “are you playing an extra note?” And that’s how we found it. So yesterday while practicing, I was having a heck of a time trying to break myself of the habit. Somehow the tempo of the piece seems to make that harder, since I’m sort of flying along… It will probably take another day or two of practice (hopefully not too much more).

I don’t know if I would have noticed that I was doing that without my teacher’s input.

If you’re curious, here’s the original, I think the forward motion of the piece makes it feel intuitive to play that extra note, but of course, it sounds better when it alternates between playing it and not playing it.

Animisha

ShiroKuro I didn’t notice it, and on Wednesday, my teacher said “are you playing an extra note?” And that’s how we found it. So yesterday while practicing, I was having a heck of a time trying to break myself of the habit.

Yes, this situation has happened to me so many times. Well, with a wrong note, rather than an extra note.

MRC

keystring Is this how you were picturing it, MRC?

Now I've seen the whole intro, I would say the best notation would be to replace all the G#s in keystring's version with Abs. This makes the most sense as a harmonic progression.

The main thing is this: those two bars are the same chord, just in a different inversion. The original notation makes them look like different harmonies, which is misleading.

candela

I have no personal experience with Synthesia, but I was just wondering if you have also tried or considered more sheet-music centric apps, like Piano Marvel and probably others. My thinking is that those would force you to actively find the right keys (more efficient learning) while still providing feedback on errors. They would also highlight timing issues. At first glance that would seem to me like a better tool for someone in your situation.
If you consciously chose against those apps, what were your reasons?
Just curious. I have not looked into them lately and am not updated on how much hassle it is to import files or what their pricing models are.

Animisha

candela but I was just wondering if you have also tried or considered more sheet-music centric apps, like Piano Marvel and probably others.

I did try Piano Marvel for a free month, and I didn't like it very much. Also, Synthesia costs 29 usd one time only, and I can use it forever, which is so much cheaper than Synthesia.

candela My thinking is that those would force you to actively find the right keys
With Synthesia, the bars stop falling down when you make a mistake, and they won't start falling until you play the correct note, so that is the same.

Animisha

Sophia Certainly, if Animisha doesn't mind the slight thread sidestep

Nemas problemas! 🙂

By the way, I can see that Alfred's deliberately spelled the chords in the way they did. One letter of the musical alphabet is skipped between each note. This kind of reasoning really makes one disliking music theory, to put it mildly.

keystring

MRC Now I've seen the whole intro, I would say the best notation would be to replace all the G#s in keystring's version with Abs. This makes the most sense as a harmonic progression.

Would you do that for BOTH measures? The original using different notes for m. 1 and m. 2 even though they are the same chord. So a "Bdim7" in two "inversions", both times? (B, D, F, Ab as the "root position" version. That would make sense to me.

(I'm supposed to be working on a rush translation but needed a short break.)

keystring

MRC Now I've seen the whole intro, I would say the best notation would be to replace all the G#s in keystring's version with Abs. This makes the most sense as a harmonic progression.

The main thing is this: those two bars are the same chord, just in a different inversion. The original notation makes them look like different harmonies, which is misleading.

Back to the side-topic if that's ok --- but it also involves reading so maybe not completely a side topic. I just gave myself some more Dorico practice. Written per your suggestion MRC. @Sophia how do you find reading this other version? (Note: When I copied over the original, it put a natural on the E's because in the previous measure they were Ebb - that is a courtesy accidental that the system put in).

I edited the notation because the B naturals were accidentally left out. Here it is corrected.

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