Animisha I’ve not spent a lot of time with this but here are my quick thoughts about the 2nd passage and your question. Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, the 2nd example piece is in f sharp minor and both staves are in the treble clef. For my hand, the most obvious fingering for the last chord is 1235, and I think I’d play the preceding chord with 123. Since the d sharp is repeated and the upper b is tied, the e sharp is the only note you could possibly connect, and I think given the final chord, it’s hard to do so. I suppose you could consider the tied note to ‘connect’ the phrase, but I’d probably use the pedal if I wanted to get a more connected effect.

      Thank you for your answer Sgisela!

      Sgisela the 2nd example piece is in A major

      Could you please explain why you think the piece is in A major and not in F# minor?

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      ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

          Animisha sorry, I didn’t play through the piece and since the final chord is a B major chord, I assumed that it was in a major key. I was mainly trying to get across the accidentals in the key signature in case anyone else wanted to respond and didn’t look up the piece. But I just played the beginning and I think you’re right that it’s in f sharp minor.

          Edit: 🤦‍♀️ — for some reason when I played the LH when I looked at this in the morning, I kept on playing it with d sharp rather than d natural and final chord I b minor.

              In a tie, you see separate notes, but you hear a single note. In the first piece, all the notes are under a slur, because there is no note in any of the voices that is held so as to sound like one note when we see two or three.

              In your second example, the three LH upper B's sound like they are one single B that continues for three beats. The lower LH notes D#, E also each last for four beats, and if they started at the start of the measure you'd see all three notes written as whole notes. Since a same note sounds continuously these are all ties.

              The lowest swishy thing is a slur, indicating that the whole thing is a phrase. You have a cadence E7 to B, and cadences tend to flow into each other. (

              I think the important thing is now what they are called, but how to play them. I still have to double check the names. When playing the music I never think of what the thing is called - I play how I hear it should be played.

                For key, I found the Rebikov piece played on-line with notation. It's in ABA where the middle jaunty bit is different. We keep settling to an F# Tonic over an F#m chord so through the main part, it feels like F# minor. But it has a modal feeling, because we never get a true V or V7 chord - we have Bm to F#m throughout.

                Rebikov throws a curveball at the end because it ends on a Bm chord, and we do have a cadence -- a dim7 (in classical terms we could call it E#dim7/D - jazzy-wise we might called D dim7 going by the bottom note) - and that diminished chord resolves to this Bm chord. But our final melody note is still an F# and it still sounds minor.

                • BBartK

                • Post #24
                • Edited

                It's actually in B Dorian mode. The notes of the key signature are the same as a dorian scale and it ends on a B minor chord.

                To hear what Dorian mode sounds like play all the white notes from D to D.

                  Animisha
                  I would say don't worry and use the pedal. The top B should not be repeated but there is no reason to contort your fingers on the lower notes.

                    BartK It's actually in B Dorian mode. The notes of the key signature are the same as a dorian scale and it ends on a B minor chord.

                    To hear what Dorian mode sounds like play all the white notes from D to D.

                    I thought of that myself, but then why that key signature? The piece has G#'s all over the place. So think of it ending in B Dorian?

                        keystring I thought of that myself, but then why that key signature? The piece has G#'s all over the place.

                        The key signature of A major corresponds to B Dorian. Go check it out! Play a scale B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A-B. It sounds the same as D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D.

                            BartK The key signature of A major corresponds to B Dorian. Go check it out! Play a scale B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A-B. It sounds the same as D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D.

                            I wrote some gobbledygook while figuring out what happened.

                            What you're trying to say is how I learned modes first: Dorian is 2nd degree to 2nd degree of a major scale. When you originally wrote:

                            BartK .... play all the white notes from D to D.

                            my goldfish mind shifted from B to D and I was in some hybrid world between the two. D Dorian doesn't have G# in it, but it also doesn't have F# in it. Somewhere in there I lost the plot. I wouldn't want to think about D and B at the same time, though I know why you went that direction.

                            I did originally learn the "2nd degree to 2nd degree", where D to D white keys was the go-to for perceiving the intervals. It's still a handy reference. If I used that method, I'd be playing A major but starting on the 2nd note. I would not think of C major going D to D, in order to get at A major going from B to B. That jumbles up too many systems for me.

                            What I switched to a long time ago was either:

                            B major, lower 3 and 7.
                            B C# D# E F# G# A# B ==> B C# D E F# G# A B

                            B natural minor (key signature of D major), raise 6
                            B C# D E F# G A B C ==> B C# D E F# G# A B

                            I found this less cumbersome than the 2 to 2 as in the example of D to D, but I might still use that white key D to D reference to double check after the fact. But at the moment of working with B Dorian, to also be following something with D, mentally that put me between keys somehow. Glad you caught it.

                                Thank you Sgisela, keystring and BartK for your discussion of this piece. The B Dorian information is way over my head, but I'll ask Chat GPT to explain it to me.

                                keystring I think the important thing is now what they are called, but how to play them.

                                For me, unless I know if the line is a slur or a tie, I don't know how to play them!

                                keystring In your second example, the three LH upper B's sound like they are one single B that continues for three beats.

                                First I need to figure out that the line connecting the notes is a tie, and then I will know that I'll need to make it sound like one single B.

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                                            BartK
                                            I'd consider that the piece starts in F#m. The tonic 2nd position used for cadence at the beginning is a proxy/suspension for a V chord. The score is murky at the end, but that appears to be an E#, which is the raised 7th position on an F#m scale, and not found on the B Dorian scale. The piece does end on a Bm chord.

                                                Chat GPT explains:

                                                The Dorian mode is a type of scale that starts on the second degree of a major scale. If your piece is in B Dorian, it means it uses the notes of the A major scale but starts and centers around the note B as the tonic (home note).
                                                For example, the B Dorian scale consists of these notes: B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A - B
                                                This scale has a characteristic "minor" sound, but with a raised 6th (G# in this case), which gives it its unique, slightly brighter feel compared to a natural minor scale.
                                                Your piece finishes with the B minor chord, confirming that the piece is centered on B, making B the tonic.

                                                Very interesting, thank you for that bonus insight! I would have struggled so hard when trying to analyse that piece and now this was given freely to me. 😊

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                                                Animisha For me, unless I know if the line is a slur or a tie, I don't know how to play them!

                                                The lines connecting the note heads are ties. The whole chord is tied across the bar line, then the B is still tied while the lower notes change. Hold down the thumb all the time and lift your fingers to play the lower notes.

                                                  sweelinck I'd consider that the piece starts in F#m. The tonic 2nd position used for cadence at the beginning is a proxy/suspension for a V chord. The score is murky at the end, but that appears to be an E#, which is the raised 7th position on an F#m scale, and not found on the B Dorian scale. The piece does end on a Bm chord.

                                                  After some discussion with Chat GPT, it says:

                                                  The opening notes and intervals confirm the piece is primarily in B Dorian. Your friends are likely correct in identifying the piece as being in B Dorian, as the D - E# - B chord serves as an embellishment or borrowed chromatic harmony rather than an indicator of a modal shift. The E# is a rare and purposeful dissonance, used to heighten the resolution to B minor. The piece remains primarily grounded in the B Dorian mode, with this chord adding harmonic richness and drama at structurally important points.

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                                                      Animisha
                                                      AI can do music analysis now?! 😲

                                                      Anyway, it doesn't really matter what you call it if you can't play it. Did you see my reply above?

                                                          The E# is a rare and purposeful dissonance, used to heighten the resolution to B minor.

                                                          I'm a bit skeptical of that with respect to traditional harmony, but maybe it is a usage in some modal jazz. The E# is the leading tone for the tonic in F#m, and that harmony essentially is a diminished 5-7 chord (missing 1 note).

                                                          Also, I'll mention that ChatGPT answers are uninterpretable without knowing the question(s) asked.

                                                            BartK Did you see my reply above?

                                                            Yes, but not when I was busy writing my reply to Sweelinck.

                                                            I know how to play a slur, I know how to play a tie, but I have some mental block that makes me unsure when I see a curved line to understand if it is a slur or a tie.

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                                                            ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                                              sweelinck Also, I'll mention that ChatGPT answers are uninterpretable without knowing the question(s) asked.

                                                              It is a loooooong discussion.

                                                              Me: I have a musical piece with three sharps in the key signature. My friends say it is in B dorian mode. Could you please in a few sentences explain what they mean?

                                                              ChatGPT: Your piece has three sharps in the key signature, which usually corresponds to A major or its relative minor, F# minor. However, your friends are saying it's in B Dorian mode.

                                                              The Dorian mode is a type of scale that starts on the second degree of a major scale. If your piece is in B Dorian, it means it uses the notes of the A major scale but starts and centers around the note B as the tonic (home note).

                                                              For example, the B Dorian scale consists of these notes:
                                                              B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A - B

                                                              This scale has a characteristic "minor" sound, but with a raised 6th (G# in this case), which gives it its unique, slightly brighter feel compared to a natural minor scale.

                                                              Me: How can I know if my friends are correct on this one?

                                                              ChatGPT:

                                                              To determine if your piece is indeed in B Dorian, consider the following steps:

                                                              1. Check the Key Signature and Notes Used

                                                                The key signature with three sharps aligns with A major (and its modes, including B Dorian).
                                                                Look at the melody and harmony: Do they primarily use the notes of the B Dorian scale (B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A - B)?

                                                              2. Identify the Tonic (Home Note)

                                                                The tonic is the note that feels like the "home base" or the most stable, resolved note of the piece.
                                                                If B feels like the tonal center where phrases start, end, or resolve, the piece is likely in B Dorian.

                                                              3. Listen for the Modal Characteristics

                                                                The Dorian mode has a minor quality but with a distinctive raised 6th (G# in B Dorian). This raised 6th often creates a brighter, jazzy, or folk-like sound.
                                                                Compare to a natural B minor scale (B - C# - D - E - F# - G - A - B). If G# is prominent instead of G natural, it supports the B Dorian argument.

                                                              4. Examine the Harmony

                                                                Look at the chords in the piece. Common chords in B Dorian include:
                                                                B minor (Bm) as the tonic chord.
                                                                F# minor (F#m) and E major (E) as prominent supporting chords.
                                                                If these chords appear frequently and resolve to B minor, it's likely in B Dorian.

                                                              5. Context and Feel

                                                                If the piece has a minor sound but doesn’t feel "sad" or "dark" like a typical minor scale (thanks to the raised 6th), it’s a sign of the Dorian mode.

                                                              Summary

                                                              If B is the tonal center and the melody/harmony emphasize G# instead of G natural, then your friends are correct—it’s in B Dorian!

                                                              Me: The last chord has the notes B D F# B F#

                                                              ChatGPT: The last chord having the notes B - D - F# - B - F# confirms that the final chord is B minor (B, D, and F# make up a B minor triad). This strongly suggests that the piece is centered on B, making B the tonic.

                                                              Since the key signature has three sharps and the piece resolves to a B minor chord, it is very likely in the B Dorian mode, assuming the raised 6th (G#) is prominent throughout the piece. If the music frequently emphasizes G# instead of G natural, your friends are correct in identifying the mode as B Dorian.

                                                              If the piece instead uses G natural often, it would simply be in B natural minor. So, double-check how the piece treats the 6th degree!

                                                              Me: The piece has an ABA structure. B has the same key signature as A and nowhere are extra accidentals. However, B finishes with a chord with the following notes: C# E G# B E. Explain.

                                                              ChatGPT: The chord C# - E - G# - B - E at the end of section B is a C# minor 7th chord (C#m7). This chord suggests a pivot point or a contrast to the surrounding harmonic context.
                                                              How It Fits in B Dorian

                                                              C#m7 in B Dorian:
    In B Dorian, C#m7 functions as the ii7 chord (the second degree of the mode).
    The notes of C#m7 (C#, E, G#, and B) all belong to the B Dorian scale (B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A - B).
    The ii7 chord often has a "suspended" or unresolved sound, which could set up a return to section A.

Relationship to the Key Signature:
    The chord does not introduce any accidentals, so it stays consistent with the three-sharp key signature.
    The use of C#m7 maintains the modal flavor of B Dorian, as it emphasizes the raised 6th (G#) inherent to the mode.

Harmonic Role:
    C#m7 could act as a pre-dominant or a transitional chord, leading back to the tonic (B minor) at the start of section A.
    Its placement at the end of section B might create a sense of openness or suspension, contrasting with the resolution provided by the B minor chord at the end of the piece.

                                                              Conclusion

                                                              The C#m7 chord fits perfectly within the B Dorian mode and serves as a way to create tension or contrast in the B section, preparing for a return to the B minor resolution in the final A section. Its function aligns with the modal characteristics and overall structure of the piece.

                                                              Me: Back to the final chord B - D - F# - B - F#. The chord before that final chord has the notes D E# B. Does that confirm B dorian or does that shine a new light on it?

                                                              ChatGPT: The chord D - E# - B before the final chord introduces E#, which is enharmonically equivalent to F natural. This raises an important point about the harmonic context and could shine a new light on the mode of the piece.
                                                              Analyzing the Chord D - E# - B

                                                              Spelling and Function:
    This is a diminished triad: B - D - E# (enharmonically equivalent to B - D - F).
    This chord can be interpreted as a B diminished chord (B°), which is commonly a leading-tone chord in C# minor or D major contexts. However, in the context of B Dorian, it serves a different role.

Implications for the Mode:
    E# (F natural) does not belong to B Dorian. In B Dorian, the 4th degree is E, and the 6th degree is G#. The presence of E# suggests a deviation from the Dorian scale.
    This B diminished triad could imply a harmonic minor or even melodic minor context for a moment, as E# is often part of a raised leading tone in minor keys.

Shining a New Light:
    If E# appears consistently, this would mean the piece is not strictly in B Dorian but instead might shift into B harmonic minor or a related mode.
    However, if E# is isolated to this single occurrence, it could just be a passing or chromatic harmony, temporarily borrowing from another scale.

                                                              What Does This Mean for the Mode?

                                                              If E# appears consistently in the piece or other similar harmonic contexts arise, your friends may need to reconsider whether the piece is fully in B Dorian.
If E# is rare and limited to this specific chord, it could be a borrowed or coloristic chord, and the piece could still primarily function in B Dorian.

                                                              Conclusion

                                                              The presence of D - E# - B adds an interesting twist, suggesting a possible shift or modal mixture. It doesn't immediately disqualify B Dorian, but it does suggest a more complex harmonic landscape than a pure modal piece. Context elsewhere in the piece would determine whether B Dorian remains the most fitting description!

                                                              Me: E# shows once more, as that exact same chord, at the end of the first A section.
                                                              In the ABA both A sections are exactly similar, except that D E# B is the last chord of the first A section and in the second A section, D E# B is followed by the final chord B - D - F# - B - F#

                                                              ChatGPT: The recurring chord D - E# - B (a B diminished triad) at the end of both A sections strongly suggests a harmonic context that extends beyond pure B Dorian. Here's how this affects the interpretation:
                                                              What the D - E# - B Chord Suggests

                                                              Function of B Diminished:
    The chord D - E# - B (B°) acts as a leading-tone chord (vii°) in C# minor. In tonal music, this diminished triad resolves upward to C#.
    However, in your piece, D - E# - B resolves to B minor (B - D - F#) in the second A section, which is unusual in the strict sense of tonal harmony.

Modal Implications:
    E# (F natural) clashes with the raised 6th (G#) that defines the B Dorian mode, suggesting the piece is not purely in B Dorian.
    The use of E# aligns more closely with B harmonic minor, where the 7th degree is raised (A# instead of A natural, leading to E# in harmonic contexts).

A Mix of Modes:
    The D - E# - B chord at the end of both A sections points to modal mixture or a shift into a B harmonic minor flavor, particularly at cadence points.
    The broader structure might suggest a modal center around B, with shifts between B Dorian (raised 6th, G#) and B harmonic minor (raised 7th, E#).

                                                              How to Interpret the Mode

                                                              Not Pure B Dorian: The presence of E# consistently undermines the claim that the piece is fully in B Dorian. Instead, it likely oscillates between B Dorian and B harmonic minor or blends the two.
B as the Tonic: Despite modal ambiguity, B remains the tonal center, reinforced by the resolution to B minor in the final chord.

                                                              Conclusion

                                                              Your piece seems to merge modal elements:

                                                              It primarily draws on B Dorian traits (with G# and the overall modal feel).
The recurring D - E# - B chord and the final resolution to B minor introduce a harmonic flavor more typical of B harmonic minor, especially at cadential points.

                                                              This interplay creates a richer harmonic landscape, blending modal and tonal characteristics around B as the tonic!

                                                              Me: However, it is only in this chord, that occurs twice at an important point that there is E#. Nowhere else in the piece is E#.

                                                              ChatGPT: Ah, this clarifies a lot! The E# being limited to just the D - E# - B chord, which appears twice at structurally significant moments, suggests a deliberate harmonic device rather than a full modal shift. Here's what this might mean:
                                                              Harmonic Interpretation of D - E# - B

                                                              Emphasis on Tension and Resolution:
    The D - E# - B chord creates a sense of tension due to its diminished quality.
    Its placement at key structural moments (end of the first A section and as a penultimate chord before the final resolution) suggests it functions as a preparatory chord to heighten the impact of the B minor resolution.

Borrowed or Chromatic Color:
    The E# (enharmonically F natural) is likely a chromatic borrowing rather than a consistent modal feature.
    It could be interpreted as a passing or auxiliary tone added to create a dramatic effect, especially since it only occurs in this specific chord and nowhere else.

                                                              How This Fits the Mode

                                                              Primarily B Dorian:
    The rest of the piece, with no additional E# and an emphasis on G#, aligns well with B Dorian.
    The modal characteristic of the raised 6th (G#) is intact throughout, supporting the Dorian classification.

Local Harmonic Flexibility:
    The E# in the D - E# - B chord adds a momentary harmonic twist without redefining the entire modal framework.
    Think of it as a "spice" added to create interest or a sense of finality at key moments, rather than a fundamental shift away from B Dorian.

                                                              Conclusion

                                                              Your friends are likely correct in identifying the piece as being in B Dorian, as the D - E# - B chord serves as an embellishment or borrowed chromatic harmony rather than an indicator of a modal shift. The E# is a rare and purposeful dissonance, used to heighten the resolution to B minor. The piece remains primarily grounded in the B Dorian mode, with this chord adding harmonic richness and drama at structurally important points.

                                                              Me: This piece starts with the notes: A F# A G# F# G# E G# F# for the right hand, and four intervals for the left hand: F#-C# slurred with D-B and then E-B slurred with C#-A.
                                                              Does that change your opinion about this piece?

                                                              ChatGPT: The opening notes and intervals provide critical insight into the harmonic and modal foundation of the piece. Let’s analyze these elements in detail:
                                                              Right-Hand Melody

                                                              The melody starts with:
                                                              A - F# - A - G# - F# - G# - E - G# - F#

                                                              Melodic Center:
    The frequent return to F# and G#, along with the prominent A, suggests the melody is grounded in a mode related to the A major scale (with three sharps: F#, C#, and G#).

Mode Implication:
    The presence of G# (raised 6th) and A (natural 7th) supports B Dorian, as these are defining notes of the mode.
    The E and F# reinforce this interpretation, as they fit naturally within B Dorian.

Contour and Cadence:
    The melody descending through E - G# - F# further solidifies the modal flavor, as E (4th degree) is prominent in B Dorian.

                                                              Left-Hand Intervals

                                                              The intervals provide harmonic support and context:

                                                              First Pair (F#-C# → D-B):
    F#-C#: This interval implies F# minor, the iii chord in B Dorian.
    D-B: This is the root and minor third of B minor, emphasizing B as the tonic.

Second Pair (E-B → C#-A):
    E-B: This interval suggests E minor (the iv chord in B minor or B Dorian).
    C#-A: This interval implies A major, which could serve as the VII chord in B Dorian.

Slurred Progression:
    The slurred pairs create a flowing harmonic progression that emphasizes B as the tonal center while introducing modal flavor through the use of both minor (D-B, E-B) and major (C#-A) intervals.

                                                              Overall Interpretation

                                                              The opening confirms the piece is centered around B as the tonic, with strong Dorian characteristics:

                                                              The right-hand melody and left-hand harmony align well with B Dorian, with the G# acting as the raised 6th—a hallmark of this mode.
The absence of E# in the opening reinforces that E natural (4th degree of B Dorian) is a stable note here, supporting the modal framework.

                                                              Revisiting the D - E# - B Chord

                                                              The appearance of E# later in the piece remains an exception to the otherwise consistent B Dorian framework. Its rare occurrence suggests a deliberate chromatic or harmonic embellishment rather than a departure from B Dorian as the overarching mode.
                                                              Conclusion

                                                              The opening notes and intervals confirm the piece is primarily in B Dorian. The D - E# - B chord, appearing only twice at structurally significant moments, adds harmonic drama but does not redefine the modal structure. Your friends are correct: the piece is in B Dorian.

                                                              ChatGPT can make mistakes. Check important info.

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                                                              ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                                                                Yes, Chat GPT may be wrong. But it is much better than me when it comes to music theory!

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                                                                ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...