I get so confused about slurs and ties. Of course I know the rule that slurs connect different notes and ties connect the same notes.
Argument for the lower line being a tie:
The lines connect the same notes.
Argument for the lower line being a slur:
The chord introduces new notes (E, G), making it part of a new group.
A tie would not make musical sense here as the chord needs to be played in full.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Thank you Bart!
I forgot an argument for the slur:
It is a slur because the first C (the measure is in treble clef) is the second voice, and the second C is the first voice.
But I guess, that doesn't matter?
(I'm not messing with you, just trying to get this crystal clear.)
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Animisha I forgot an argument for the slur:
It is a slur because the first C (the measure is in treble clef) is the second voice, and the second C is the first voice.
The voice leading here is strictly speaking inconsistent. If you consider the whole chord in the second measure to be in voice 1, then voice 2 disappears at this point. If a slur is intended in voice 2, there is nothing for it to be slurring to: it has no meaning and shouldn't be there at all.
I am thus sure that the C in the second measure belongs to voice 2, and a tie is intended. If we were to follow the rules of counterpoint to the letter, that C would be written with a downward tail. But in piano music voice leading is often treated somewhat loosely, readability being prioritised over strict observance of part-writing rules. There is a wonderful book by Elaine Gould called "Behind Bars", which is widely considered to be the bible of music notation. She writes:
"Except when individual parts are to be indicated throughout by separate stems, it is acceptable to revert to single stemming at the earliest opportunity"
Edit: I just found this as well:
"It is acceptable to use a single stem for chords in which some but not all notes are tied."
Ithaca Animisha, I'm curious - setting aside the matter of the composer or arranger's intent, what sounds better to you, in the context of the entire piece?
Actually, that doesn't matter! I just want to get total clarity about what the composer or arranger's intent is, before I decide to maybe do my own variation.
It is like I am a visual artist, confused about perspective. I want to know the perspective rules. Then maybe I decide to create a picture with erroneous perspective. But I want to do that knowing the rules, not because I don't know the rules.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Your example is interesting because only the C is tied and the E is repeated. If the E was to be tied it would have to have a separate line between the two E note heads across the bar line. Both of these cases happen in real music - multiple notes of a chord tied (each with a separate tie) and only some notes tied like here.
Bart, allow me to confess. I thought the answer to my picture would be that it was a slur, for the three reasons I mentioned. Then my plan was to show the true score, which looks like this.
Yes, also E is tied.
Once again, this was not to mess with you guys, just to get clarity about ties and slurs.
I now think it is as simple as this:
Surs connect different notes and ties connect the same notes - except when there are different notes between those two identical notes in the same voice. In that case it is a slur.
So, in the example below:
the top line is a slur, because there are other notes in the same voice between the two identical notes, and the bottom line is a tie, because there are no notes in the same voice between the two identical notes.
Please correct me if I am wrong!
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Animisha Surs connect different notes and ties connect the same notes - except when there are different notes between those two identical notes in the same voice. In that case it is a slur.
Yeah, I guess you can put it that way but normally the notation is very clear. In a tie it's the note heads that are linked togther not the stems. I don't know if that's the "official" academically correct way to write it but I don't remember seeing it any other way and I would certainly feel the sheet music is written badly if it wasn't the case.
Let me rewrite the "rule" for the tie. Ties connect the same notes that are immediately adjacent to each other.
A line between two notes that are identical, but that have other notes between them, is a slur.
Unless the notes in between the identical notes belong to another voice, and there is no break between the first note and the second one.
In the case below, the line connecting both C's is a slur.
Again, please correct me if I am wrong.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Animisha Let me rewrite the "rule" for the tie. Ties connect the same notes that are immediately adjacent to each other.
A line between two notes that are identical, but that have other notes between them, is a slur.
Unless the notes in between the identical notes belong to another voice, and there is no break between the first note and the second one.
You don't need to make it that complicated. Just stop before the bar line and check which notes are being held down at this point. A note which is held down until the bar line and tied across the bar line to the same note in the next bar is simply held down longer (a tie) rather than repeated.
The notation for slurs and ties was invented before pianos existed. In the case of woodwind/brass instruments, the curved line connecting notes indicates that tongue shouldn't be used before sounding each note. Musically, this is what I have in mind when I see slurs/ties--a smoothness that is similar to a woodwind not tonguing.
If a note is being switched between two voices, I don't think it would be notated with a slur/tie. If it were 3 flutes playing, for example, you would hear when a C was being switched between players. Your original example seems to be better represented by 3 players, with two of them playing the same top line in the first measure, before splitting into E and G in the second.
Were I to play that music, the lower C would be held for four beats across the bar lines as a continuous tone. It is a tied note, i.e. a note that sounds continuously. Were there no bar line at that point, it would be written as a whole note. It is a tie.
It would have been useful to see it in context so as to get a sense of the music. What I'm "hearing" is a melody in the lower notes that seem to be coming to a conclusion, like a phrase settling on the Tonic (if this is in C major).
It's a tie, not a slur, because it is not combining different notes that belong together in a legato kind of way; it is a single note that plays continuously.
Once again, I am unsure.
In legato intervals, it happens all the time that one note is repeated, and the other one makes the legato. For instance, in the treble clef In Church by Tchaikovsky, the same note B is not tied but slurred. The legato is made by the top notes.
Now these below are the final two measures of The shepherd playing his pipe by Rebikov. Both clefs are treble clef. Key is probably F# minor (three sharps).
Is the top note of the lower clef B slurred or tied?
I guess, tied, because there are specific lines connecting them. Is that correct?
And, now that I have your attention, how would you make the LH legato in this last measure? I don't understand which finger(s) I can keep down in order to make legato with the last chord. Or would you cheat with the pedal?
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Animisha I’ve not spent a lot of time with this but here are my quick thoughts about the 2nd passage and your question. Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, the 2nd example piece is in f sharp minor and both staves are in the treble clef. For my hand, the most obvious fingering for the last chord is 1235, and I think I’d play the preceding chord with 123. Since the d sharp is repeated and the upper b is tied, the e sharp is the only note you could possibly connect, and I think given the final chord, it’s hard to do so. I suppose you could consider the tied note to ‘connect’ the phrase, but I’d probably use the pedal if I wanted to get a more connected effect.
Animisha sorry, I didn’t play through the piece and since the final chord is a B major chord, I assumed that it was in a major key. I was mainly trying to get across the accidentals in the key signature in case anyone else wanted to respond and didn’t look up the piece. But I just played the beginning and I think you’re right that it’s in f sharp minor.
Edit: 
— for some reason when I played the LH when I looked at this in the morning, I kept on playing it with d sharp rather than d natural and final chord I b minor.
In a tie, you see separate notes, but you hear a single note. In the first piece, all the notes are under a slur, because there is no note in any of the voices that is held so as to sound like one note when we see two or three.
In your second example, the three LH upper B's sound like they are one single B that continues for three beats. The lower LH notes D#, E also each last for four beats, and if they started at the start of the measure you'd see all three notes written as whole notes. Since a same note sounds continuously these are all ties.
The lowest swishy thing is a slur, indicating that the whole thing is a phrase. You have a cadence E7 to B, and cadences tend to flow into each other. (
I think the important thing is now what they are called, but how to play them. I still have to double check the names. When playing the music I never think of what the thing is called - I play how I hear it should be played.
