Slurs and ties

Animisha

I get so confused about slurs and ties. Of course I know the rule that slurs connect different notes and ties connect the same notes.

Argument for the lower line being a tie:
The lines connect the same notes.

Argument for the lower line being a slur:
The chord introduces new notes (E, G), making it part of a new group.
A tie would not make musical sense here as the chord needs to be played in full.

BartK

It's definitely a tie.

Animisha The chord introduces new notes (E, G), making it part of a new group.
A tie would not make musical sense here as the chord needs to be played in full.

It's called an anticipation and it's quite common. Makes perfect musical sense.

Animisha

Thank you Bart!

I forgot an argument for the slur:
It is a slur because the first C (the measure is in treble clef) is the second voice, and the second C is the first voice.

But I guess, that doesn't matter?
(I'm not messing with you, just trying to get this crystal clear.)

MRC

Animisha I forgot an argument for the slur:
It is a slur because the first C (the measure is in treble clef) is the second voice, and the second C is the first voice.

The voice leading here is strictly speaking inconsistent. If you consider the whole chord in the second measure to be in voice 1, then voice 2 disappears at this point. If a slur is intended in voice 2, there is nothing for it to be slurring to: it has no meaning and shouldn't be there at all.

I am thus sure that the C in the second measure belongs to voice 2, and a tie is intended. If we were to follow the rules of counterpoint to the letter, that C would be written with a downward tail. But in piano music voice leading is often treated somewhat loosely, readability being prioritised over strict observance of part-writing rules. There is a wonderful book by Elaine Gould called "Behind Bars", which is widely considered to be the bible of music notation. She writes:

"Except when individual parts are to be indicated throughout by separate stems, it is acceptable to revert to single stemming at the earliest opportunity"

Edit: I just found this as well:

"It is acceptable to use a single stem for chords in which some but not all notes are tied."

Ithaca

Animisha, I'm curious - setting aside the matter of the composer or arranger's intent, what sounds better to you, in the context of the entire piece?

Animisha

Ithaca Animisha, I'm curious - setting aside the matter of the composer or arranger's intent, what sounds better to you, in the context of the entire piece?

Actually, that doesn't matter! I just want to get total clarity about what the composer or arranger's intent is, before I decide to maybe do my own variation.

It is like I am a visual artist, confused about perspective. I want to know the perspective rules. Then maybe I decide to create a picture with erroneous perspective. But I want to do that knowing the rules, not because I don't know the rules.

BartK

Your example is interesting because only the C is tied and the E is repeated. If the E was to be tied it would have to have a separate line between the two E note heads across the bar line. Both of these cases happen in real music - multiple notes of a chord tied (each with a separate tie) and only some notes tied like here.

Animisha

Bart, allow me to confess. I thought the answer to my picture would be that it was a slur, for the three reasons I mentioned. Then my plan was to show the true score, which looks like this.

Yes, also E is tied.

Once again, this was not to mess with you guys, just to get clarity about ties and slurs.
I now think it is as simple as this:

Surs connect different notes and ties connect the same notes - except when there are different notes between those two identical notes in the same voice. In that case it is a slur.

So, in the example below:

the top line is a slur, because there are other notes in the same voice between the two identical notes, and the bottom line is a tie, because there are no notes in the same voice between the two identical notes.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

BartK

Animisha Surs connect different notes and ties connect the same notes - except when there are different notes between those two identical notes in the same voice. In that case it is a slur.

Yeah, I guess you can put it that way but normally the notation is very clear. In a tie it's the note heads that are linked togther not the stems. I don't know if that's the "official" academically correct way to write it but I don't remember seeing it any other way and I would certainly feel the sheet music is written badly if it wasn't the case.

MRC

BartK In a tie it's the note heads that are linked togther not the stems

Slurs can also link note heads.

BartK

MRC Slurs can also link note heads.

Yes, but if it's the same note then you know it's a tie.

Animisha

Let me rewrite the "rule" for the tie. Ties connect the same notes that are immediately adjacent to each other.

A line between two notes that are identical, but that have other notes between them, is a slur.
Unless the notes in between the identical notes belong to another voice, and there is no break between the first note and the second one.

In the case below, the line connecting both C's is a slur.

Again, please correct me if I am wrong.

BartK

Animisha Let me rewrite the "rule" for the tie. Ties connect the same notes that are immediately adjacent to each other.

A line between two notes that are identical, but that have other notes between them, is a slur.
Unless the notes in between the identical notes belong to another voice, and there is no break between the first note and the second one.

You don't need to make it that complicated. Just stop before the bar line and check which notes are being held down at this point. A note which is held down until the bar line and tied across the bar line to the same note in the next bar is simply held down longer (a tie) rather than repeated.

Animisha

BartK Yes, I probably complicate things too much. But, in my original post, the thing I thought was a slur turned out to be a tie, so I did need som clarity! 😎

rsl12

The notation for slurs and ties was invented before pianos existed. In the case of woodwind/brass instruments, the curved line connecting notes indicates that tongue shouldn't be used before sounding each note. Musically, this is what I have in mind when I see slurs/ties--a smoothness that is similar to a woodwind not tonguing.

If a note is being switched between two voices, I don't think it would be notated with a slur/tie. If it were 3 flutes playing, for example, you would hear when a C was being switched between players. Your original example seems to be better represented by 3 players, with two of them playing the same top line in the first measure, before splitting into E and G in the second.

keystring

Were I to play that music, the lower C would be held for four beats across the bar lines as a continuous tone. It is a tied note, i.e. a note that sounds continuously. Were there no bar line at that point, it would be written as a whole note. It is a tie.

It would have been useful to see it in context so as to get a sense of the music. What I'm "hearing" is a melody in the lower notes that seem to be coming to a conclusion, like a phrase settling on the Tonic (if this is in C major).

It's a tie, not a slur, because it is not combining different notes that belong together in a legato kind of way; it is a single note that plays continuously.