ShiroKuro

As far as I know, key length can differ from 23 to 45 cm (9-18 inches)!!

How nice that you also can experience sounds as sour. I do as well, and I didn't know how common it was. Especially opera sopranos sometimes have a more, or a less sour timbre, in my experience, that is.

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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

    @Animisha re the key bed depth, wow!!! That’s crazy!!!

    Re sounds, so you “hear color” in sounds?

      Thanks I’ll check out those links!

      Key Dip, thank you for that term. I thought that’s what you started this thread with, but you were apparently talking about the horizontal length of the keys.

      I’m an early student with a Yamaha P115, and yesterday with a very nice dinner hanging in the air, I was able to try my brother’s Kawai upright. Key dip was much shallower on the Kawai, and I’m not sure which I’d prefer. Interesting to know that any piano will likely have a different dip, so it’s just another color in the experience.

      I was also curious about the vertical angle of the keys before and after pressing. I’d assumed that all keys at rest would be level, and the down position would be angled on the pivot. But I found references to some pianos having the opposite, that they sit up at rest and are level when down. Can anybody elaborate?

      Perpetual Beginner, Yamaha P115

        My limited knowledge from watching piano tuning videos on YouTube think key dip is something a piano tuner can and do adjust during regulation?

        macuaig Key Dip, thank you for that term. I thought that’s what you started this thread with, but you were apparently talking about the horizontal length of the keys.

        Nope, I wasn’t talking about horizontal length. I was talking about vertical distance traveled when you press down on a key. I think that as the key bed because the bottom, where the key bottoms out, is the “bed.l

        But apparently, key dip is the more standard term. It makes sense, key dip describes the movement of the key, whereas key bed describes what the key lies on top of.

        I would to know what the key dip is on my Yamaha C2. Or at least what the standard is. Maybe it gets altered on individual piano, for example, after regulating?

        A way , I wonder if I can easily find that info


            ShiroKuro I would to know what the key dip is on my Yamaha C2. Or at least what the standard is. Maybe it gets altered on individual piano, for example, after regulating?

            In this video, the tuner says the key dip should be set to 3/8 inch (9.5mm) to begin with, then fine tuned from there. He's talking about an upright piano. I guess a grand piano shouldn't be much different? He also mentions to key dip change is done by changing the felt or paper push-ins on the front rail pin.

              I would actually guess that the key dip on a grand would be different (deeper) than on an upright. Maybe that’s not right?

              ShiroKuro

              No, no colours. Except for my Pianoteq Bechstein that sounds like blue-white marble (or water). And some sounds are like rust. And when I listen to you playing on the Kimble again, I can hear the sourness, even though I didn't think about it the first time when I listened.

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              ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                @Animisha hmmm. I wonder if we both have a small amount of “Synesthesia” in us. Interesting isn’t it!

                  ShiroKuro Yes, I think we have. I think many people have, just a bit, and few have a lot.

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                  ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                    Key dip is not standard. My two pianos have different key dips. The patent action key-dip is something like 8 mm (it's officially 9 but actually I think it's either a bit shallower or the felts underneath are very firm). My standard action is 11mm (officially 10 but it's not...) and also the sound happens much further down the key dip than on the patent action.

                    Over the years it hasn't been standardized on pianos until relatively recently. I've seen Bösendorfers from the 70s, 80s, and 90s that had different key dips to today's models and I'm not sure if they were regulated that way or if it was standard for each era. If I recall correctly Schimmel always had a little deeper key dip, BlĂŒthner was a bit shallower, but the standard we have now is really the Hamburg Steinway specification from the mid-20th Century or a bit later, onwards. Yamaha and Kawai adopted this specification and rolled it out on all their pianos about 40 years ago, and Yamaha have a policy that their Clavinova has the same key dip as the CFX and all the other pianos. I suspect that Bösendorfer today uses the standard key dip but I've never measured it.

                    A shallower key dip in my experience requires a slightly different technique. It's fairly easy to adapt once you know how but it's a bit disconcerting at first. Of course it's hard to be completely consistent between pianos with different keyboard specifications.

                    @Joseph-Fleetwood that’s really interesting!

                    I’m sure I would have adjusted more quickly if it wasn’t a performance situation!

                    Adjusting quickly for a concert is never an ideal situation. It takes time. I've had this problem too. It's kinda sucky.

                    @Joseph-Fleetwood what do you do to try to adjust before a concert when the piano feels more shallow than what you’re used to?

                    Well, I can only give general guidance since pianos can vary wildly even when you have two of the same make and model. It's not so much the key depth that's important as it is the point in the key depth where the escapement happens.

                    If the piano feels deep, I point my fingers down more from the knuckle. the metacarpal joint, and I stay closer to the keys and use a bit more weight from the arm. Just a touch more, nothing too drastic. When the keyboard is shallow I actually find a less pointed finger, almost a flatter hand attitude works a bit better, with the fingers pointed more out the way than down the way. I use a bit less weight otherwise it can feel like I'm hitting a hard surface because my finger travel will continue after the key has sounded. When it's a shallow touch I use less weight and feel more like I'm playing outside of the keyboard rather than inside it.

                    If the piano is a bit stiff, I tend to use a bit more finger action, but it's a downward - inward action, pulling the finger in towards the palm rather than a vertical motion, and then release from the palm so that the finger resets to the starting position without being pulled upwards.

                    Does that help?

                      Joseph-Fleetwood When the keyboard is shallow I actually find a less pointed finger, almost a flatter hand attitude works a bit better, with the fingers pointed more out the way than down the way.

                      Ahh, that makes sense, esp re the piano I played that instigated this thread!

                      thank you!

                        5 days later

                        I experimented with my own piano by making the keydip shallower. Found it easier to play faster and more accurately, but the depth of sound and dynamic range were significantly decreased. I'd probably like a piano with shallow keydip for live performances because I'd rather sacrifice beauty of tone than technical accuracy, but that's from my own insecurities 😜.

                          Rubens I wonder if it's to do with action design as well. Perhaps making the key dip shallower requires a complete readjustment and regulation of the whole action including factors like hammer blow distance?