Minuet in G (Petzold) [Please Help!]

Pallas

I did not have a lesson this week because my teacher and I both avoided our crazily packed downtown area yesterday. So I have two specific questions on one of my pieces I hope you'll help me with.

Context: I'm doing this piece, Petzold's Minuet in G (I), with maximum baroque articulation, per my teacher's instructions. We walked through all of the RH articulations in my last lesson, but we didn't finish looking at LH.

With regard to the mordent in bar 30, she has asked me to use the upper mordent and the CBCB pattern, so I don't want to explore other options. I have a week to get the whole piece in shape and need to focus on playing it the way she wants. Thanks for understanding!

My questions:

What fingers should I use for the bar 30 upper mordent (CBCB)? I think it's 4343 because that's what seems to fit the recommended fingering. I want to make sure, because in this piece, the lower mordent on the C uses 321 (switching fingers to move the hand rightward for ease of fingering what comes next). I just don't feel 100% secure that my answer is correct and validation would help.
In bars 25 and 26, I think this is what happens:

In the LH, lower voice, the half note lifts on the AND of "two and", and the quarter note strikes on the THREE.

In the LH upper voice, bar 25 starts with a quarter rest, and the half note strikes on the 2, lifting on the AND of "3 and."

So I need to pay close attention to the seesaw, where there's a RH 8th note striking when a half note is lifting in the LH, yes?

Are my red arrows clear on the score?

Thanks for any help. In suggestions, please keep in mind that only linked 8th notes are legato and all other notes are detached. How the piece is played most commonly on YouTube is irrelevant to my homework, as my teacher wants me to do this piece on the hardest setting.

keff

Pallas If I imagine myself playing the piece I would reach the first beat C in bar 30 with RH finger 4. I then might be tempted to change to finger 3 on the first C of CBCB so that I play CBCBA with 32321. I guess I would have to be careful not to over emphasise the A with my thumb. Of course I am no piano teacher.

Your description of the LH rhythms in bars 25 and 26 are good. I am assuming your teacher has advised lifting the half notes on the AND rather than holding them until after the AND and if so I would stick with teacher's advice.

BartK

Pallas What fingers should I use for the bar 30 upper mordent (CBCB)? I think it's 4343 because that's what seems to fit the recommended fingering. I want to make sure, because in this piece, the lower mordent on the C uses 321 (switching fingers to move the hand rightward for ease of fingering what comes next). I just don't feel 100% secure that my answer is correct and validation would help.

Just a nitpick - that's a trill not a mordent. A mordent is 3 notes where you go to the adjacent note and come back. A trill can have more alternations.

Regarding your question, I would advise against playing ornaments with any other fingers than 1, 2, or 3 until you're really good with those fingers. 4343 is hard even for me. I use it only when I have no other choice. Since your teacher wants you to play all the quarter notes detached just lift your hand and play whatever fingers are easiest - probably 2121 or 3131. Both the adjacent 1st and 3rd beats are detached so you have the freedom to reposition your hand.

Pallas So I need to pay close attention to the seesaw, where there's a RH 8th note striking when a half note is lifting in the LH, yes?

I know coordination is hard in the beginning and initially you have to think about specific sequences of movements (play that finger, lift that one, etc.) but one of the best advices my teacher gave me was to think in terms of beats and fit the other notes to that. Mentally you have to think ONE-two-three and feel the pulse of the smaller notes at the same time to know when they are supposed to be played.

twocats

Pallas What fingers should I use for the bar 30 upper mordent (CBCB)? I think it's 4343 because that's what seems to fit the recommended fingering.

I think you got lots of advice on the fingering but just wanted to add that you never do 4343 on a trill because your 3rd and 4th fingers share a tendon (the other fingers each get their own tendon), so it is physically more challenging to manipulate them together!

I feel the most comfortable with 3232 trills and will often adjust my fingerings so that I can do that unless the music forces me to do something else, and then it's just annoying 😂

Pallas

keff I am assuming your teacher has advised lifting the half notes on the AND rather than holding them until after the AND and if so I would stick with teacher's advice.

We ran out of time last lesson, and we didn't go over this very issue. In general, she wants me to hold all notes to their full length. I made a guess n how to do that here, and brought it here for debate. Thank you.

Pallas

keff If I imagine myself playing the piece I would reach the first beat C in bar 30 with RH finger 4. I then might be tempted to change to finger 3 on the first C of CBCB so that I play CBCBA with 32321. I guess I would have to be careful not to over emphasise the A with my thumb.

I'll try it your way and compare. Thank you!

Pallas

keff I am assuming your teacher has advised lifting the half notes on the AND rather than holding them until after the AND and if so I would stick with teacher's advice.

I cross-posted my question, and that group's expert said my analysis is the voices is correct, but since the upper voice does not rearticulate on beat 1 of the next measure, I should hold that note for its full duration, releasing right on beat 1 of the next measure. The lower voice releases early (on the 8th subdivision) in order to facilitate rearticulation of the next note.

I think that's what you were investigating, correct?

Ithaca

keff Your description of the LH rhythms in bars 25 and 26 are good. I am assuming your teacher has advised lifting the half notes on the AND rather than holding them until after the AND

Is there a reason to lift the half note a quarter beat early on the "and"? Although at tempo it may end up sounding that way, at a slow no-mistakes tempo, there's plenty of time to lift the lower-voice half note well after the 2nd finger has landed on the F#. I may be wrong, but I think it's better to deliberately not hard-wire a simultaneous pairing of RH 2nd finger landing on F# with the early lifting of the lower-voice finger. Later on if Pallas wants to create some time at that spot and stagger those two motions slightly, she may find it difficult if she originally learnt them as simultaneous gestures.

Pallas

Pallas The lower voice releases early (on the 8th subdivision) in order to facilitate rearticulation of the next note.

@keff and/or @BartK

I'm lost on the subdivision geography. How is there an 8th subdivision in 3/4 time? The way I'm counting, it's the 4th subdivision. I can only get to 8 if I count "one-ee-and-a" rather than "one and." Can you please straighten me out?

Pallas

BartK Thank you for all of this. I have to hold some of this lightly and do as the teacher asks, and it's a little confusing, but it's getting easier with every round of problem solving (I also called it a trill and got corrected, so I'm trying to be very careful.) I'll experiment on the fingering as you suggest, and after I get hand coordination ok at a basic level, I'll investigate what sounds most musical in that multi voice section. Thank you very much.

BartK

BartK play whatever fingers are easiest - probably 2121 or 3131

Sorry, that should have been 3232 or 3131.

keff

Pallas I wondered if the poster meant 8th note. Your teacher's advice about holding notes for their full length cannot be argued with (imo).

Pallas

keff Your teacher's advice about holding notes for their full length cannot be argued with (imo).

I'm going to hold the half note in the lower voice until the 1 in the next measure and see what she says. Thanks for helping.

hebele

Is that trill supposed to start with the same note or the upper note? And how long it needs to be?

Pallas' bcb looks nice. But I've read baroque and early classics tends to start trills with one upper note. So maybe cb or cbcb?

Pallas

hebele She wants me to play CBCB.

The notes in my score say it's a BCB trill, but she's the teacher & she wants to call it a CBCB mordent. So I'm making notes and doing my best to learn it her way for now.

twocats

Pallas The notes in my score say it's a BCB trill, but she's the teacher & she wants to call it a CBCB mordent.

Ok, I see why everyone is hung up on the terminology. You're asking about CBCB (which looks like a trill when you write it that way) but really it's C-BCB in bar 30. You've got a quarter note C, and then you've got a mordent on the B.

Edit: read through more of the thread in detail, are you sure your teacher wants you to duplicate the C? Because that's not the breakdown that you wrote on the score with the arrow pointing C to the first quarter note 🙂 And the term "upper mordent" makes sense because you're going up to C from the B (BCB) instead of down to A (BAB) for the ornament.

Based on the fingering of the scale leading up to it, I'd do (if no repeated C) 4-232-1. Or with a repeated C, 4-3232-1. With the detached notes it's very easy to switch to a different finger!

keff

Pallas I think my fingering advice for RH in bar 30 is incorrect. As I now see it (and apologies for misreading your list of notes in the red box) the C is followed by an upper mordent (as your teacher says) of three notes BCB and then followed by the A. Thus the first C is played by finger 4, BCB could be 343 if you feel the fourth finger to be strong enough, if not squeeze 2 onto the B and play 232.

Pallas

I really appreciate all the help. With this final piece of the puzzle, I can finally see my way to the end of first playthrough (then I'll start working on the variation in the repeat - I'm going to collate the ideas and noodle - but first I play it as my teacher wants). She likes creativity as soon as I can demonstrate that I understand and can play it the way she asks, which I find very reasonable (and it's compatible with what I want).

Pallas

keff No apology necessary. I confess that my notes are not that clear. She wants me to start the trill with the note above the "start" note (in this case, C). So she wants me to play the preceding C, and then the trill is CBCB (per her wishes). Playing it her way will repeat the C. C_CBCB. Both groups I consulted disagree with her, but I'm ok with learning it her way, and then experimenting when I record the piece. Thank you for adding your thoughts to this thread. I appreciate it.

I will report back if I misunderstood my own notes, which is not out of the question. 😜 There is a slight language barrier in my lessons and stuff happens sometimes.

BartK

keff I think my fingering advice for RH in bar 30 is incorrect. As I now see it (and apologies for misreading your list of notes in the red box) the C is followed by an upper mordent (as your teacher says) of three notes BCB and then followed by the A. Thus the first C is played by finger 4, BCB could be 343 if you feel the fourth finger to be strong enough, if not squeeze 2 onto the B and play 232.

You don't have to squeeze anything. Her teacher said to play the quarter notes detached so I would lift after the C then play the trill (or mordent whatever you call it) with 3232 then lift your finger again and play the A with the thumb. You don't want to start building up tension by playing harder fingers when it's not necessary. Keep it simple so you can stay as loose as possible.

iternabe

I've heard of trill, but this is the first time I heard mordent. So I went to google it, only to become more confused🤦‍♂️. The only consensus seems to be that they are indeed to be played differently. But on how to identify which is which by the ornament sign, and which sign means inverted (mordent), I am seeing contradictory answers. I do find this one appears to be more convincing to me.

Faber does not teach ornaments in their book 1. When I first encounter a trill in their companion book piece, I had to figure out on my own. My take away is ornaments are much difficult than they appears, and they need specific teaching and lots of tailored practices to be performed right. I may add and practices them only after mastering everything else of the piece.

A couple of things I learned that apply to beginners. There is natural yet wrong tendency to play trill (or mordent, I suppose) as even divides in time, either because a beginner do not know, or because their fingers aren't that quick. And, there is a natural tendency to tense up before playing the ornaments, but that's exactly the opposite to what's needed which to relax just before the ornament to play it light, fast and fluent. Zhadnov mentioned this in his video on Petzold's Minuet, too.

Pallas

iternabe Zhadnov mentioned this in his video on Petzold's Minuet, too.

Yes! I listened to that one this morning. Very helpful. My teacher says the subject is full of contradiction, so once you know what the options are, you get to make your own informed choice about what to do, and when to do it. The only time it seems to genuinely matter is if you're taking exams and you are being graded on using what is in the official score. Otherwise, it's just about how comfortable you are with your own choice. No matter what we pick, the Internet will tell us we're wrong, so why not do what you like and enjoy. 😜

thepianoplayer416

iternabe

When it comes to ornaments during the 17th & 18th century, they were intended to be added in an improvised manner than on top of specific notes as written like the way you'd add spices to your food. They were written in by the composer as suggestions to embellish the piece. Students usually play ornaments as written on the sheet than add them based on personal preference.

A mordent involves playing 3 notes. If you see a mordent over a D, you'd play the note, then the note above, the note again quickly so you have (D-E-D). A slash on a mordent symbol means an inverse mordent. You'd play the note, the note below and the note again so you have (D-C-D).

A trill you alternate between 2 notes. Think of it as a longer version of a mordent. If you see "tr" over the note D, you alternate between the note and the note above which is D&E. The Baroque way you always start on the higher note and end on the lower note so you have E-D-E-D-E-D. Depending on the length of the note the trill is on, you can have a shorter or longer trill.

A lot of repertoire books intended for beginner & lower intermediate students would drop all the ornaments so you'd focus on playing the correct notes than embellishing a piece as advance pianists would do.

keff

Ithaca Is there a reason to lift the half note a quarter beat early on the "and"?

Not to my knowledge and I would hold the note until after the AND. When I replied I was unaware of what the teacher had requested and I didn't want to appear to be contradictory to a teacher.

As an intermediate player I guess that I will shorten or lengthen notes most of the time. If a composer wishes to make sure a player observes the full length of a note then a tenuto mark can always be applied.

Pallas

Ithaca Later on if Pallas wants to create some time at that spot and stagger those two motions slightly, she may find it difficult if she originally learnt them as simultaneous gestures.

I understand the concern, and right now I'm in the data gathering stage. I usually need to consider an idea from several angles before I understand the problem and potential solutions. Counting will only get me so far. Once the math merges with what I'm hearing in recordings, musical intuition will join the party and it'll make sense.

No doubt next Thursday, my teacher will have me clap it out, and it will become even clearer.

You'll all be able to see/hear the result when I post a recording.