Pallas If I imagine myself playing the piece I would reach the first beat C in bar 30 with RH finger 4. I then might be tempted to change to finger 3 on the first C of CBCB so that I play CBCBA with 32321. I guess I would have to be careful not to over emphasise the A with my thumb. Of course I am no piano teacher.

Your description of the LH rhythms in bars 25 and 26 are good. I am assuming your teacher has advised lifting the half notes on the AND rather than holding them until after the AND and if so I would stick with teacher's advice.

    Pallas What fingers should I use for the bar 30 upper mordent (CBCB)? I think it's 4343 because that's what seems to fit the recommended fingering. I want to make sure, because in this piece, the lower mordent on the C uses 321 (switching fingers to move the hand rightward for ease of fingering what comes next). I just don't feel 100% secure that my answer is correct and validation would help.

    Just a nitpick - that's a trill not a mordent. A mordent is 3 notes where you go to the adjacent note and come back. A trill can have more alternations.

    Regarding your question, I would advise against playing ornaments with any other fingers than 1, 2, or 3 until you're really good with those fingers. 4343 is hard even for me. I use it only when I have no other choice. Since your teacher wants you to play all the quarter notes detached just lift your hand and play whatever fingers are easiest - probably 2121 or 3131. Both the adjacent 1st and 3rd beats are detached so you have the freedom to reposition your hand.

    Pallas So I need to pay close attention to the seesaw, where there's a RH 8th note striking when a half note is lifting in the LH, yes?

    I know coordination is hard in the beginning and initially you have to think about specific sequences of movements (play that finger, lift that one, etc.) but one of the best advices my teacher gave me was to think in terms of beats and fit the other notes to that. Mentally you have to think ONE-two-three and feel the pulse of the smaller notes at the same time to know when they are supposed to be played.

          BartK play whatever fingers are easiest - probably 2121 or 3131

          Sorry, that should have been 3232 or 3131.

            Pallas I wondered if the poster meant 8th note. Your teacher's advice about holding notes for their full length cannot be argued with (imo).

              Is that trill supposed to start with the same note or the upper note? And how long it needs to be?

              Pallas' bcb looks nice. But I've read baroque and early classics tends to start trills with one upper note. So maybe cb or cbcb?

              Pallas I think my fingering advice for RH in bar 30 is incorrect. As I now see it (and apologies for misreading your list of notes in the red box) the C is followed by an upper mordent (as your teacher says) of three notes BCB and then followed by the A. Thus the first C is played by finger 4, BCB could be 343 if you feel the fourth finger to be strong enough, if not squeeze 2 onto the B and play 232.

                  keff I think my fingering advice for RH in bar 30 is incorrect. As I now see it (and apologies for misreading your list of notes in the red box) the C is followed by an upper mordent (as your teacher says) of three notes BCB and then followed by the A. Thus the first C is played by finger 4, BCB could be 343 if you feel the fourth finger to be strong enough, if not squeeze 2 onto the B and play 232.

                  You don't have to squeeze anything. Her teacher said to play the quarter notes detached so I would lift after the C then play the trill (or mordent whatever you call it) with 3232 then lift your finger again and play the A with the thumb. You don't want to start building up tension by playing harder fingers when it's not necessary. Keep it simple so you can stay as loose as possible.

                    I've heard of trill, but this is the first time I heard mordent. So I went to google it, only to become more confused🤦‍♂️. The only consensus seems to be that they are indeed to be played differently. But on how to identify which is which by the ornament sign, and which sign means inverted (mordent), I am seeing contradictory answers. I do find this one appears to be more convincing to me.

                    Faber does not teach ornaments in their book 1. When I first encounter a trill in their companion book piece, I had to figure out on my own. My take away is ornaments are much difficult than they appears, and they need specific teaching and lots of tailored practices to be performed right. I may add and practices them only after mastering everything else of the piece.

                    A couple of things I learned that apply to beginners. There is natural yet wrong tendency to play trill (or mordent, I suppose) as even divides in time, either because a beginner do not know, or because their fingers aren't that quick. And, there is a natural tendency to tense up before playing the ornaments, but that's exactly the opposite to what's needed which to relax just before the ornament to play it light, fast and fluent. Zhadnov mentioned this in his video on Petzold's Minuet, too.

                      Ithaca Is there a reason to lift the half note a quarter beat early on the "and"?

                      Not to my knowledge and I would hold the note until after the AND. When I replied I was unaware of what the teacher had requested and I didn't want to appear to be contradictory to a teacher.

                      As an intermediate player I guess that I will shorten or lengthen notes most of the time. If a composer wishes to make sure a player observes the full length of a note then a tenuto mark can always be applied.

                        iternabe

                        When it comes to ornaments during the 17th & 18th century, they were intended to be added in an improvised manner than on top of specific notes as written like the way you'd add spices to your food. They were written in by the composer as suggestions to embellish the piece. Students usually play ornaments as written on the sheet than add them based on personal preference.

                        A mordent involves playing 3 notes. If you see a mordent over a D, you'd play the note, then the note above, the note again quickly so you have (D-E-D). A slash on a mordent symbol means an inverse mordent. You'd play the note, the note below and the note again so you have (D-C-D).

                        A trill you alternate between 2 notes. Think of it as a longer version of a mordent. If you see "tr" over the note D, you alternate between the note and the note above which is D&E. The Baroque way you always start on the higher note and end on the lower note so you have E-D-E-D-E-D. Depending on the length of the note the trill is on, you can have a shorter or longer trill.

                        A lot of repertoire books intended for beginner & lower intermediate students would drop all the ornaments so you'd focus on playing the correct notes than embellishing a piece as advance pianists would do.

                            thepianoplayer416 I hear what you are saying. But look at this page that explains Bach's ornaments. What other says as symbol of mordent is trill for Bach. And the symbol with a slash, where others say is inverted mordent, is just mordent. I am not saying that this page is correct, other than it seems to be presented in detail. And I definitely do not want this to become a debate in this thread. I just came away with the impression that this is a complicated topic that's far from everyone having a consensus.

                            Maybe the least controversial way is just to follow what one's teacher tells them to do.

                                iternabe Maybe the least controversial way is just to follow what one's teacher tells them to do.

                                I agree. You can always learn different ways later. A name is just a name anyway. It doesn't really matter that much what you call it. You can say "ornament" if you want to side step the whole question of what to call it.

                                  Pallas What fingers should I use for the bar 30 upper mordent (CBCB)? I think it's 4343 because that's what seems to fit the recommended fingering.

                                  I think you got lots of advice on the fingering but just wanted to add that you never do 4343 on a trill because your 3rd and 4th fingers share a tendon (the other fingers each get their own tendon), so it is physically more challenging to manipulate them together!

                                  I feel the most comfortable with 3232 trills and will often adjust my fingerings so that I can do that unless the music forces me to do something else, and then it's just annoying 😂

                                    Pallas The notes in my score say it's a BCB trill, but she's the teacher & she wants to call it a CBCB mordent.

                                    Ok, I see why everyone is hung up on the terminology. You're asking about CBCB (which looks like a trill when you write it that way) but really it's C-BCB in bar 30. You've got a quarter note C, and then you've got a mordent on the B.

                                    Edit: read through more of the thread in detail, are you sure your teacher wants you to duplicate the C? Because that's not the breakdown that you wrote on the score with the arrow pointing C to the first quarter note 🙂 And the term "upper mordent" makes sense because you're going up to C from the B (BCB) instead of down to A (BAB) for the ornament.

                                    Based on the fingering of the scale leading up to it, I'd do (if no repeated C) 4-232-1. Or with a repeated C, 4-3232-1. With the detached notes it's very easy to switch to a different finger!

                                      Ithaca I wouldn't choose 3-4 trills just because I can, I try to make my playing as easy as possible 😂

                                      I'm sure there's some very difficult repertoire that pretty much forces it (e.g. 1st and 2nd finger held but trill happening above it) but I'm not playing those pieces and if I was I'd see if I can find some way around it (see if LH can take over the RH bottom notes) or try a 3-5 trill instead of 3-4. A lot of people don't realize that the shared tendon is why it is so difficult and that it's a biomechanical limitation.

                                        Pallas I’ll report back if anyone is interested to see how the fingering shakes out.

                                        Please do report back! 🙂

                                          @Pallas I think the reason she wants you to play CBCB is that your score is incorrectly marked. The PDF in the link below is supposed to be the Urtext (meaning original) version and it's marked with a trill, not a mordent (but I'm still confused about why she's calling it an upper mordent)!

                                          Also I am now enlightened by the Internet about why you said this is by Petzold when I know it as a famous piece by Bach. Apparently new research has shown that Bach collected a bunch of works in his "Notebook for Anna Magdelena Bach" but he didn't write all of them!

                                          https://www.pianostreet.com/bach_minuet_in_g_114_psu.pdf

                                          Ithaca maybe you need to practice your 2-3 trills more 😉

                                            Pallas So, in my opinion, this falls into the category that it’s better to be wise than right. She must have her reasons for saying what she’s saying, and I’ve decided not to use more of my lesson time trying to be right.

                                            This is indeed the best approach. It's not about who is right and who is wrong. It's really about whether you can do as you are taught. Do what the teacher says. Do it in perfection - if you can, then your teacher will be much open to discussion about if there are other ways and how they compare. Refusing to do as taught, and worse yet arguing about it, leads to nowhere. I learned that from sitting right seat as high-performance driving instructor.

                                              Oh goodness, so much controversy! I feel like I must also disagree with the Urtext editor's note saying that it should be CBCBCB. If it was two bars before the end of the piece I'd do a long trill and a slight ritardando (slow down) but in bar 30 my opinion is that it should be CBCB. It's in the middle of a phrase and it doesn't make sense to have a long ornament there. So I agree with your teacher on how it should be played but not what it is called 😆

                                              Pallas I like my teacher and don’t have a problem quietly agreeing to disagree on one small point.

                                              Good idea, very wise! It's such a minor change anyway and will be easy to alter if you want 🙂

                                              The last two teachers I went to for technical/ergonomic help I really disagreed with for some of their musical suggestions so I took the good and left the bad!

                                                Ithaca it still sounds like cheap frippery to me

                                                Funny - I used to think this of all baroque music because of the ornamentation. It took some time but I now like the ornaments...sometimes. 🙂

                                                Pallas I like my teacher and don’t have a problem quietly agreeing to disagree on one small point.

                                                Ditto. My teacher is great but occasionally I don't like the expressive suggestions he makes. I would not consider arguing about it...I just smile and nod and then do it my way later. 😎

                                                    Pallas The editors got their ornament table from a book J.S. Bach wrote for W.F. Bach, and so the argument continues.

                                                    Question: is this a table demonstrating a trill vs other ornaments, or a table demonstrating this exact trill in this exact spot? If the former it's just an example! If the latter then I guess it's suggested to play a very fast trill there 😂 Though also see my later comment on improvised ornaments, really anything goes as long as it's stylistically appropriate, unless you're doing an exam in which case you'd better play whatever is written.

                                                    Pallas Ok, so, in the repeat, bar 30 is 2 bars before the end, isn’t it?

                                                    Bar 30 is considered 3 bars before the end, the end being the double bar. Usually counting backwards you'd say "last bar", "two bars before the end", "three to the end", etc.

                                                    What I was trying to say (having heard a lot of Baroque music) is that if there was an ornament on the final quarter note in bar 31 I would do a long trill (and do a lower mordent at the end to go EF#, which I call a turn under). A trill with a turn under on the penultimate note is an extremely common Baroque ornament. But it wouldn't sound right the first time around, only on the repeat when you're ending the piece. If you decide to record it, it would sound so great if you decided to add in a long trill with a turn under on the repeat! (Also, this is so advanced but I know you love absorbing extra info; once you're aware you'll notice it especially in harpsichord recordings: those final trills always start slow and then speed up, and then slow for the turn under.)

                                                    Baroque music had improvised ornaments all the time and I'm sure many of the ornaments were written in as examples for a student of how they could be played at various places, which would explain why you hear it played different ways in recordings 🙂

                                                        OK, there are a couple of things.

                                                        The first thing is the issue of what you call this ornament. IMO this isn't really that important so whatever your teacher says.

                                                        Second, the issue of "urtext". Urtext isn't really a pure original version of how the composer wrote it. For one thing, it was composed by Petzold and we don't have the manuscript only what Anna Magdalena Bach copied into her notebook and the way she wrote it down isn't how you would in a modern edition (if you're curious here is what that page looks like in the manuscript). When an editor looks at the sources (sometimes there are multiple conflicting sources) they have make decisions and what you get in the "urtext" is only a best guess of what the scholars think the composer intended.

                                                        Third, the issue of ornaments in baroque music. There isn't any correct way to play ornaments. All we have is a certain performance tradition. But different people have different ideas and you hear many versions. Also, the ornaments that are written in are just the most basic ones. Most performers add more ornaments in other places according to their taste. It's generally considered tasteful to play the basic ornaments on the first play through and add different ornaments on the repeat.

                                                        Anyway, I got a bit carried away nerding out on this topic but I think at your present stage following your teacher's guidance is the best you can do. Just keep those things in mind for the future.

                                                        Pallas My teacher is letting me work out my own fingerings, but she gives me suggestions if my ideas don’t work

                                                        Me having more opinions, I'll put them under a cut.

                                                        I don't agree with this approach; I think good fingerings should be assigned to beginners (can be modified if it's not working for you) because you don't know what you don't know. Maybe your own fingerings are passable and playable but a different fingering would make things so much easier. Good fingerings are actually a key part of playing well because it can really affect the ease of playing (especially for fast passages; when it's slow you can get away with inefficiencies). I'm glad you're asking here for suggestions if your teacher isn't providing these upfront for awkward places. Hit me up anytime if you want me to help with ideas! I literally spend days working them out on a new piece, working, reworking. It makes sense to invest the time early so that when you practice and get it into your brain it's not with clumsy fingerings that you have to unlearn later.

                                                          Pallas I think this a wonderful thing, proving that there is a lid for every pot . . .

                                                          Apparently you've never been in my kitchen. Lots of pots, few lids.

                                                            Pallas that's why I put it under a cut 😂 Your teacher sounds really great for you, and I'm glad you're also asking for help here when you need to figure out additional details between your lessons. I'm sure your lessons are packed already and she doesn't have time to cover everything that she would like to!

                                                              Pallas

                                                              This is really the thing. The format demands choices. We only have 45 minutes per week.

                                                              Maybe book 2 lessons a week, then you'd have more time to discuss technique and anything else piano related. You could even discuss your purchase of a grand piano - she would probably be able to offer plenty of useful advice on that.


                                                              "Don't let's ask for the moon, we have the stars." (Final line from Now,Voyager, 1942)

                                                                Pallas I love that you're playing this piece and at max difficulty and loving it! I did not play it with any ornaments when I was a kid. How is your practice going? You're really progressing very quickly with your studies 🙂

                                                                  Pallas This whole thing is why I added a plea at the beginning of this thread that we just take my teacher’s statements about the ornaments as a given. But a forum will do what it does, regardless.

                                                                  I listened for my first reply... and then promptly forgot afterward 😆

                                                                    Pallas, when you feel like taking a break, maybe you would enjoy listening to this one:

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                                                                      Animisha Brilliant find, Animisha. I think I prefer this version to the original. 🙂

                                                                      "Don't let's ask for the moon, we have the stars." (Final line from Now,Voyager, 1942)

                                                                        Pallas I also thought baroque music uninteresting. But I find this minuet fun to play (well.. learning to play). More than anything in my method book so far. I've already started to eye some Bach pieces to learn 🙂

                                                                          Pallas changed the title to [Pallas] Lesson Pieces .

                                                                          Pallas

                                                                          Hi Pallas, how nice your pieces went well during the lesson! Congratulations! 👍

                                                                          Pallas I renamed the thread, because I might want help with other lesson pieces later. Thank you everyone who helped.

                                                                          Would you reconsider the name, because in this thread is a lot of valuable information for other students trying to learn Minuet in G. But with the new name, what are the odds that they find this thread?
                                                                          If you need help with a new piece, you can start a new thread about it. 😊

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                                                                              Pallas changed the title to Minuet in G (Petzold) [Please Help!] .

                                                                              Thank you dear Pallas! 🥰

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                                                                              ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...