Ithaca it still sounds like cheap frippery to me

Funny - I used to think this of all baroque music because of the ornamentation. It took some time but I now like the ornaments...sometimes. πŸ™‚

Pallas I like my teacher and don’t have a problem quietly agreeing to disagree on one small point.

Ditto. My teacher is great but occasionally I don't like the expressive suggestions he makes. I would not consider arguing about it...I just smile and nod and then do it my way later. 😎

Pallas The editors got their ornament table from a book J.S. Bach wrote for W.F. Bach, and so the argument continues.

Question: is this a table demonstrating a trill vs other ornaments, or a table demonstrating this exact trill in this exact spot? If the former it's just an example! If the latter then I guess it's suggested to play a very fast trill there πŸ˜‚ Though also see my later comment on improvised ornaments, really anything goes as long as it's stylistically appropriate, unless you're doing an exam in which case you'd better play whatever is written.

Pallas Ok, so, in the repeat, bar 30 is 2 bars before the end, isn’t it?

Bar 30 is considered 3 bars before the end, the end being the double bar. Usually counting backwards you'd say "last bar", "two bars before the end", "three to the end", etc.

What I was trying to say (having heard a lot of Baroque music) is that if there was an ornament on the final quarter note in bar 31 I would do a long trill (and do a lower mordent at the end to go EF#, which I call a turn under). A trill with a turn under on the penultimate note is an extremely common Baroque ornament. But it wouldn't sound right the first time around, only on the repeat when you're ending the piece. If you decide to record it, it would sound so great if you decided to add in a long trill with a turn under on the repeat! (Also, this is so advanced but I know you love absorbing extra info; once you're aware you'll notice it especially in harpsichord recordings: those final trills always start slow and then speed up, and then slow for the turn under.)

Baroque music had improvised ornaments all the time and I'm sure many of the ornaments were written in as examples for a student of how they could be played at various places, which would explain why you hear it played different ways in recordings πŸ™‚

OK, there are a couple of things.

The first thing is the issue of what you call this ornament. IMO this isn't really that important so whatever your teacher says.

Second, the issue of "urtext". Urtext isn't really a pure original version of how the composer wrote it. For one thing, it was composed by Petzold and we don't have the manuscript only what Anna Magdalena Bach copied into her notebook and the way she wrote it down isn't how you would in a modern edition (if you're curious here is what that page looks like in the manuscript). When an editor looks at the sources (sometimes there are multiple conflicting sources) they have make decisions and what you get in the "urtext" is only a best guess of what the scholars think the composer intended.

Third, the issue of ornaments in baroque music. There isn't any correct way to play ornaments. All we have is a certain performance tradition. But different people have different ideas and you hear many versions. Also, the ornaments that are written in are just the most basic ones. Most performers add more ornaments in other places according to their taste. It's generally considered tasteful to play the basic ornaments on the first play through and add different ornaments on the repeat.

Anyway, I got a bit carried away nerding out on this topic but I think at your present stage following your teacher's guidance is the best you can do. Just keep those things in mind for the future.

Pallas My teacher is letting me work out my own fingerings, but she gives me suggestions if my ideas don’t work

Me having more opinions, I'll put them under a cut.

I don't agree with this approach; I think good fingerings should be assigned to beginners (can be modified if it's not working for you) because you don't know what you don't know. Maybe your own fingerings are passable and playable but a different fingering would make things so much easier. Good fingerings are actually a key part of playing well because it can really affect the ease of playing (especially for fast passages; when it's slow you can get away with inefficiencies). I'm glad you're asking here for suggestions if your teacher isn't providing these upfront for awkward places. Hit me up anytime if you want me to help with ideas! I literally spend days working them out on a new piece, working, reworking. It makes sense to invest the time early so that when you practice and get it into your brain it's not with clumsy fingerings that you have to unlearn later.

Pallas I think this a wonderful thing, proving that there is a lid for every pot . . .

Apparently you've never been in my kitchen. Lots of pots, few lids.

Pallas that's why I put it under a cut πŸ˜‚ Your teacher sounds really great for you, and I'm glad you're also asking for help here when you need to figure out additional details between your lessons. I'm sure your lessons are packed already and she doesn't have time to cover everything that she would like to!

Pallas

This is really the thing. The format demands choices. We only have 45 minutes per week.

Maybe book 2 lessons a week, then you'd have more time to discuss technique and anything else piano related. You could even discuss your purchase of a grand piano - she would probably be able to offer plenty of useful advice on that.


"Don't let's ask for the moon, we have the stars." (Final line from Now,Voyager, 1942)

Pallas I love that you're playing this piece and at max difficulty and loving it! I did not play it with any ornaments when I was a kid. How is your practice going? You're really progressing very quickly with your studies πŸ™‚

Pallas This whole thing is why I added a plea at the beginning of this thread that we just take my teacher’s statements about the ornaments as a given. But a forum will do what it does, regardless.

I listened for my first reply... and then promptly forgot afterward πŸ˜†

Pallas, when you feel like taking a break, maybe you would enjoy listening to this one:

*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

    Animisha Brilliant find, Animisha. I think I prefer this version to the original. πŸ™‚

    "Don't let's ask for the moon, we have the stars." (Final line from Now,Voyager, 1942)

    Pallas I also thought baroque music uninteresting. But I find this minuet fun to play (well.. learning to play). More than anything in my method book so far. I've already started to eye some Bach pieces to learn πŸ™‚

    Pallas changed the title to [Pallas] Lesson Pieces .

    Pallas

    Hi Pallas, how nice your pieces went well during the lesson! Congratulations! πŸ‘

    Pallas I renamed the thread, because I might want help with other lesson pieces later. Thank you everyone who helped.

    Would you reconsider the name, because in this thread is a lot of valuable information for other students trying to learn Minuet in G. But with the new name, what are the odds that they find this thread?
    If you need help with a new piece, you can start a new thread about it. 😊

    *
    ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

    Pallas changed the title to Minuet in G (Petzold) [Please Help!] .

    Thank you dear Pallas! πŸ₯°

    *
    ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...