Finding a Teacher for an "Advanced" Amateur

BartK · 2024-10-29T09:52:20+00:00

So, I have been learning piano for nearly 10 years (my piannivesary is November 11th) and as that date approaches I feel a little discouraged by my level and...

BartK

JB_PT

Thanks for the insightful post. Indeed, maybe I should be careful what I wish for. I'm not sure I would like having a dictator teacher that doesn't give me any choice at all. On the other hand, free for all is also not that great (my second teacher felt like that). I have to find a balance between structure and fun.

I think I'll bring the Bach along with some of the shorter pieces. I'm working on the Dvořak Humoresque no. 7 which is a delightful little piece but has some tricky spots too.

I'm also thinking of having a one off consultations with online teachers not for the purpose of having regular lessons but to have an honest assessment of my present level. Does anyone have any experiences with that?

JB_PT

BartK I'm working on the Dvořak Humoresque no. 7 which is a delightful little piece but has some tricky spots too.

This is one of the pieces my teacher recently suggested for me that was not on my radar. I agree with your assessment! I really enjoyed working on it.

Nightowl

Well, I noticed on another thread that you are playing a Rachmaninoff piece that is grade 8 or 10 (depending which system), so maybe you need to find a teacher with experience of teaching at a conservatoire? I don't know how you'd go about this - maybe if there is a conservatoire in your area you could go on their website and see if they offer private tuition? One thing's for sure, you're probably playing at the level of many self employed teachers (because from what I've read many of them don't have advanced diplomas), so it makes sense to narrow your search if your're seeking a very highly qualified teacher.
The right teacher might be a real asset, but I also think that you could continue to progress without one, if you practice diligently. Anyone capable of playing Rach is a pretty capable player, IMO.

Pallas

BartK Oh, no! Exams stress me out too much. Besides, they aren't really a thing here.

Got it. Good luck. I'll be following your adventure with interest.

keff

BartK I have often given a great deal of thought about whether or not there is a systematic method of learning piano. My belief is that the nearest systematic approach that can be achieved are embedded in the extensive syllabi available by the ABRSM or RCM exam systems. As I never wanted to put myself through the stress of piano exams I elected not to follow any of them. To a large extent I now regret this choice as I could have followed the eight graded course of ABRSM without taking any exams and I would now be a more 'rounded' pianist. However just following the grades one after another will turn few individuals into professional musicians. There has to be much more 'reading around the subject' and this is where learning lots of other pieces of music perhaps in a random order is absolutely necessary.

My decision not to pursue the ABRSM route was made about twenty years ago when my goal was almost totally focused on being able to sight read. I thought being able to sight read would solve all my problems but that turned out not to be true. It left out all the technique required to play different styles of music. I cannot confirm that the ABRSM system will teach all the techniques required, it probably will not. It might be worth while for a student to draw up a list of different techniques to be discussed with a teacher so that pieces of music can be chosen to help development. My list would start with the following;

legato playing
staccato
staccato one hand legato the other
playing softly
playing loudly
soft one hand, loud the other
etc.
The list is as long as you wish to make it and it becomes part of a systematic approach.

Ithaca

BartK I want to have a clear path and reassurance that I'm going in the right direction. I want the teacher to have the freedom to tear down the whole building and start from scratch if that's necessary. But I want the teacher to also lay down their plan clearly so I can see the path taken. Continuing business as usual without that understanding is only going to make me less confident that I'm making progress.

Pallas I wanted this too, with all my heart. I identify so strongly with your whole post I could have written it myself. I still want it. And every time I try to ask my teacher anything vaguely seasoned with this desire to have clarity, she sidesteps and it's very aggravating.

Speaking as someone who has taught (not piano) more than I would like (I'm not a natural at all, plus I don't like having to deal with people): I absolutely understand the desire for a clear plan and path, and I also understand why a good teacher can't really offer one. One might say, "we'll use these books and cover these topics", but when it comes down to the particular path that a student might take to get to goalposts 1 through 20....It's very student-dependent. An experienced teacher could say something like, "for students of type A, methods from group N seem to work best; students of type B do better with group O methods; students of type C....", but they're not going to know a priori whether you fall into any of their typical categories. And even just looking at students within each category, the things they get stuck on, and the particulars of how they think, can be highly variable.

If a teacher is working one-on-one with a student, then they always need to be reading the wind - stand outside, lick your finger, and see which side is getting colder, so to speak - to see whether they should keep going in the same direction, or backtrack, or stay put and drill down and/or circle, or veer off somewhere else entirely. Looking back, my best teachers knew the subject matter cold, plus they were always studying and reading me: was I ready to do xyz? Did I have the feeling of wanting to do abc, and if so, what were the possible ways that I might best first be able to grasp concept fgh? They would try to gauge whatever state I was in, and then make their best judgement about which direction to point me in and what guidance to give me along the way.

Some teachers have no answer to the "where am I going, and why am I in a handbasket?" question because they're not so good and/or they're just not thinking about their students. But sometimes it's because they know how unanswerable that question is.

Animisha

The best of luck Bart! I have personally given up the quest for a good teacher.

I have written numerous letters to prospective online teachers, and there is rarely any who says, No, I cannot help you with that (which in my case is, basically, help me improve my technique). Then I have a first lesson with them, they make me play C major contrary, and they have NO comment at all on my technique. Not telling me what to improve, but neither telling me what was good about it (in case I played it perfectly).

Also, being on this forum does not help. 🤪 Our discussions have given me a lot of rather firm ideas about how to learn and practise, for instance, no more playing through new pieces.
My latest (last?) teacher wanted me to play through a new piece before I had started practising it, so she could tell me how to play it. We did this with one piece, and I made so many mistakes! I felt pressured and got completely stressed out.

So yesterday I bought a year with Zachary Deak on Artist Works, in order to get feedback on my pieces. In that way, I don't have to deal with a teacher who does not teach in the way that I want to.

Still, I hope that somehow, one day, I will cross paths with a good piano teacher. But the next year, I won't be looking for them.

Simonb

Animisha

Hi Animisha

I hope the Zachary Deak on-line lessons work well for you.

Though as you used the phrase "does not teach in the way I want to" I have my doubts. If you have a very fixed view on how you should be taught, I'm not sure that you'll ever find a teacher (in person or on-line) who meets all your requirements.

I'd have thought the reason the Teacher asked you to play through the piece, that you hadn't practised, was to see how good your reading was.

This forum and the other one, that I've been on for much longer are great. There are many fabulous musicians posting on both. However I never post questions on technique or playing here (or there), as the variety of, sometimes very strong opinions expressed, a lot of the time makes drawing a sensible conclusion almost impossible.

For classical playing and technique I rely only on my Teacher. She is no virtuoso, in fact she is primarily a Viola player, but I expect to at least start working at diploma level with her over the next few years. I knew within a few minutes of our first lesson that she was the right person for me, as her musicality shines through.

Again good luck!

BartK

I booked a lesson with Greg Niemczuk. We'll see what he has to say.

Now I'm getting nervous... 😬😱

Pallas

BartK Good for you! I love his videos, and I admire your courage. Here's what you would tell me if the roles were reversed. You don't have to impress him. He's there to help. Your playing is going to progress! You can do this. (I believed you when you said it to me, and it's true. AND I also get very nervous too, every single lesson. I think it means we care very much, and that we're full of energy and excitement!) I hope you'll report on how it goes. I for one will be very interested.

Josephine

BartK

Ohh, that's great! Like Pallas I also hope you will report on how it goes!

Animisha

BartK

Good luck Bart, and please tell us!

Pallas

Simonb However I never post questions on technique or playing here (or there), as the variety of, sometimes very strong opinions expressed, a lot of the time makes drawing a sensible conclusion almost impossible.

I'm so glad you said this. I'm convinced that it was letting go of all the "shoulds" that helped me finally connect with a teacher. It's fun to talk about ideals, but in the end, each person is very different, each teacher is very different, and as pianists, part of the job is to take in a great deal of information, then make choices about how to use that information on our journey. It's fun to talk about the options, but in the end, no one else is there with us on the bench. I think that the most important skill that I never see anyone talk about is discernment. So of course, I'm wanting to make a new thread just about that. ☺️ (I thought about it, and realized I should use the time to practice instead! 😂)

Animisha

Simonb Though as you used the phrase "does not teach in the way I want to" I have my doubts. If you have a very fixed view on how you should be taught, I'm not sure that you'll ever find a teacher (in person or on-line) who meets all your requirements.

That is very true!

Simonb I'd have thought the reason the Teacher asked you to play through the piece, that you hadn't practised, was to see how good your reading was.

This was actually part of her teaching. So she could teach me how to play something before I start practising it. It is a completely valid part of teaching. However, for several reasons, I don't want to work that way.

Also,

Simonb I knew within a few minutes of our first lesson that she was the right person for me, as her musicality shines through.

I have never experienced this. Never!

But you are right, it is probably because I have too many ideas. 🤪
However, if I ever would find a teacher that I really trust, I would be happy to let go of all of them.

BartK

So, I just had my lesson with Greg Niemczuk.

I started with the Humoresque. Even though I know it's not a performance I was very nervous at the beginning and messed up in a few places. After the initial playthrough we talked a bit about the piece and what to do to improve it but also about technique and how to approach practicing. We went over a couple of spots that were giving me trouble and he provided some tips on practicing it.

Then, I played the Bach and then I also messed up so much he even stopped me and we focused on that spot for a little. He asked me to divide it into voices and practice it separately. After that, I continued playing to the end of the piece and that went fairly smoothly.

I think he is a great teacher and had many insightful remarks about practicing and technique. I might take more lessons with him in the future but I think for the moment I need an in person teacher that I will see more regularly and work on all the little issues.

Thanks to everyone for your encouragement on this thread!

JB_PT

Sounds like a positive experience! I agree about in-person being a better choice. I've done some online lessons and while they were better than I expected, they still didn't compare to working together in person.

BartK He asked me to divide it into voices and practice it separately.

I'm curious about his recommendation for this bit. I've heard this advice before but I've been avoiding it for 3-4 voices because it seems like it's best to maintain the correct fingering, and I have a lot of trouble keeping track of that for so many voices unless I write it all in....which is very cumbersome and messy.

Animisha

BartK I think he is a great teacher and had many insightful remarks about practicing and technique. I might take more lessons with him in the future but I think for the moment I need an in person teacher that I will see more regularly and work on all the little issues.

Bart, how is it going? Have you found an in person teacher?

BartK

JB_PT I'm curious about his recommendation for this bit. I've heard this advice before but I've been avoiding it for 3-4 voices because it seems like it's best to maintain the correct fingering, and I have a lot of trouble keeping track of that for so many voices unless I write it all in....which is very cumbersome and messy.

You're supposed to play each voice separately but with the final fingering. I don't think he was saying to play the whole piece like this. We were practicing a small bit of a few measures that is tricky and for this spot I think it makes sense.

Pallas

I'm so glad you mentioned separating the voices. My teacher asks me to do this too, and of course this was one of the big tussles that happened at PW before I stopped going there. There's this idea that something terrible will happen if we separate the hands to work out a problem. I no longer buy in to that idea. Sometimes, it's impossible to see where the problem originates if we don't separate the hands. So now I do separate the hands when I can't find a problem. It works, and I have no problem putting the hands back together. I think we should be very careful not to let advice on the Internet interfere with our progress.

Great work, BartK. I'm so glad the lesson was valuable to you, and I wish you all the best finding an in person teacher.

BartK

Pallas I'm so glad you mentioned separating the voices. My teacher asks me to do this too, and of course this was one of the big tussles that happened at PW before I stopped going there. There's this idea that something terrible will happen if we separate the hands to work out a problem. I no longer buy in to that idea. Sometimes, it's impossible to see where the problem originates if we don't separate the hands. So now I do separate the hands when I can't find a problem. It works, and I have no problem putting the hands back together.

That's a whole topic of its own but basically you have to do both. Of course, you need to practice hands together to learn the coordination but you also have to have clarity in your mind about what each hand is doing and be able to focus on and hear one thing at a time even while playing it together. I remember that as a beginner I used to learn hands separate then put hands together but then after I played hands together for a while I wasn't able to play hands separate anymore. That wasn't good because it meant I was completely reliant on the motor memory of playing hands together.

Sgisela

Pallas — there are people who seem very ideological about HT or HS. I came from teachers who encouraged playing HT (and pedaling) as much as possible from the beginning. But the moment there were technical problems, unless the technical problem was specifically about coordinating the hands, then the technical issues were addressed HS, without pedal. I think it’s much more efficient and targeted that way. If you’re having a technical problem that you need to sort out, I think this is most effectively done by isolating it as much as possible — and if your brain is working on a lot of other things at the same time, it’s very hard to isolate the problem and work it out and get it into the system. So, my approach is to practice HT as much as possible but when I encounter technical difficulties, to try to isolate them.

As regards voicing, I think a lot of the reason to practice the separate voices is to train yourself to hear the voices. For my brain and ear, unless I do this, it can be easy to ignore some of the voices, and that ends up coming through to the audience.

Pallas

BartK Ah, separate the voices not the hands. Maybe I misunderstood. But my objection to NOT separating whatever still stands. ☺️

BartK

Pallas Ah, separate the voices not the hands. Maybe I misunderstood. But my objection to NOT separating whatever still stands. ☺️

Yes, in Bach there are often more than two voices, sometimes moving between the hands, and you should be able to play each separately with it's own independent phrasing. It's a common exercise to practice separate voices.

iternabe

BartK I remember that as a beginner I used to learn hands separate then put hands together but then after I played hands together for a while I wasn't able to play hands separate anymore.

I find this true even for things as basic as scales.

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