Finding a Teacher for an "Advanced" Amateur

BartK

So, I have been learning piano for nearly 10 years (my piannivesary is November 11th) and as that date approaches I feel a little discouraged by my level and my progress. I had about 6 years of lessons with two teachers. Initially, my progress was pretty quick and within a few years I got to the level where I could learn some of the easier Beethoven sonatas, Bach French Suites, easier Chopin Nocturnes, Grieg Lyric Pieces, etc. Then, the pandemic changed everything, I moved away from the city, had some stuff going on at work that prevented me from practicing that much - long story short, I stopped lessons around that time and have been self-teaching ever since.

There were some advantages to self-teaching - I could work on whatever pieces I liked and didn't feel the pressure to make progress every week. On the other hand, not having a teacher means I might be missing a lot of things and have holes in my learning. That's why I put quotes around "advanced" in the title of this post. I'm only advanced in the sense that I'm learning advanced pieces but I don't feel my technique is fully at that level yet and I'm sure that I have many shortcommings a teacher would have to fix before I can progress. I'm OK taking a step back to work on that if it can help me break through to a higher level of playing.

Now, my problem is that I'm not sure how to start the search for a teacher. Usually, teachers want to hear you play something to get an idea of your playing but I don't actually have any piece that I can show right now. Well, I can play the first movement of the Bach Italian Concerto at about 50% tempo, which is very labored and tiresome to listen to. Not sure if that's a good choice. Maybe I should bring a romantic work too. Should I learn something else before going to look for a teacher? Can I bring videos of me playing previously learned pieces or would that be a waste of time?

Also, I'm not sure if I should present such advanced pieces to a prospective teacher. I want the teacher to honestly assess my playing and create a plan for improving but I don't want them to feel compelled to work on this particular piece if it's not the best choice for me at the moment. Ideally, what I'd like to say is "this is how I play this piece today but I'm OK to drop everything and start fresh with whatever you choose".

It's probably going to take a while. I would like to have a local teacher I can visit in person but before that I'd like to consult with some online teachers I like if they have the availability.

Thoughts?

Pallas

BartK As you know, I'm very new, so perhaps this isn't good advice. But I studied by myself for a year before starting my teacher search. So while I was looking for a teacher, I just brought in what I was working on and explained my situation the way you did in this post. I did send in a piece I had recently recorded, in my intro email. In my experience, teachers have their own way of evaluating where you are in your journey. I found it hard to just show up as is, but I think no matter how you prepare, with a good teacher you will get back to where you were faster than if you try to get there alone. And I think that's exactly what you would tell me.

Sgisela

BartK I basically agree with @Pallas . I would think of meeting a teacher rather like another lesson — you’re showing the teacher where you are, not performing for them. When I met my current teacher, I played what I was working on at the moment, which was far from ready. And that was the first piece we worked on together.

So I wouldn’t sweat this too much. Take what you have — the Bach at its current level, some of the shorter things you’ve been working on. And take it from there. It’s just a first meeting, and if you decide to work together, it will take a little time for both of you to settle in.

BartK

Sgisela When I met my current teacher, I played what I was working on at the moment, which was far from ready. And that was the first piece we worked on together.

JB_PT If I had to search for a teacher again, I'd probably start with an easier piece that I felt comfortable with...but I'd also bring something more challenging that included at least one spot that I'm struggling to improve. I would ask them for suggestions on how to work on it and/or how to approach it differently.

The thing is that I very specifically don't want my first lesson to end up being a "let's continue from wherever you are" business as usual. Like most adult learners I'm an insecure overthinker. I want to have a clear path and reassurance that I'm going in the right direction. I want the teacher to have the freedom to tear down the whole building and start from scratch if that's necessary. But I want the teacher to also lay down their plan clearly so I can see the path taken. Continuing business as usual without that understanding is only going to make me less confident that I'm making progress.

My idea of what a first lesson should look like is first talk about my goals, then show what I can play, then talk about a plan to achieve my goals, then specific assignments maybe new pieces or etudes or maybe we decide to continue work on my current pieces but it has to be very clear what the purpose is. Is that realistic? Are any teachers like this? My previous two teachers never talked about their learning plan and that always made me worry a bit.

JB_PT

It was surprising to me how difficult it was to find someone who was willing/able to help me with technique. If I had to search for a teacher again, I'd probably start with an easier piece that I felt comfortable with...but I'd also bring something more challenging that included at least one spot that I'm struggling to improve. I would ask them for suggestions on how to work on it and/or how to approach it differently. My current teacher can almost always identify what I can change for immediate improvement...and he can also tell me various ways to practice it. That's what I would want to see in a trial lesson with a new teacher.

Sgisela

BartK I think this is totally reasonable, but if anything, even more of a reason not to stress out about what you have ready. Just go, talk to the teacher, see if you like the rapport with the teacher and whether the teacher listens to your goals and is willing to talk to you about how they would approach lessons with you. This includes deciding what you will start on together — whether it’s what you played for them or something completely different.

If things seem reasonably promising, give it a good month trial. I think it can take some time for a teacher to get a sense of how quickly you learn and the scope of both your strengths and limitations — so I would be a bit surprised if they felt confident in developing a comprehensive learning plan for you after one lesson. But I think over a month, you can probably get a good sense of each other.

Edit: I also like @JB_PT ’s suggestion of taking a tricky spot to troubleshoot and see what kind of help you get. In a first lesson, if you leave with a sense of how whether the teacher can identify the cause of the problems and how to fix them, I think this is very valuable.

JB_PT

BartK Is that realistic? Are any teachers like this? My previous two teachers never talked about their learning plan and that always made me worry a bit.

I can only talk about my personal experience...I've tried a total of 7 teachers and only the first one had any sort of lesson plan. That turned out to be totally inappropriate for me because she wanted me to follow a method book series that I didn't like and she wasn't very flexible (she was used to teaching beginners and really didn't know what to do with me). My next teacher had no plan whatsoever and we just worked on whatever I brought in each time. There were things I didn't like about that and I assumed I would prefer more structure. I did a trial with one teacher who took the reins and basically told me what pieces I would work on. This was a 'be careful what you wish for' situation, because I didn't really care for most of the pieces she was selecting and I started to hate my practice time.

Everyone is different, but personally I'm really happy with my current arrangement - I pick the majority of my pieces but my teacher supplements with other things, often styles that I would not choose for myself. Or I can say that I'd like to work on this or that skill and he's able to come up with something that fits the bill...but we usually end up working on some aspect of technique with every piece I choose as well.

My suspicion is that lesson plans are more common for people in the beginning stages of learning and less common the more advanced you get. If you do find a teacher who is able to recite a lesson plan for you on day 1, I would actually be a bit leery. Lessons need to be tailored to the individual because we all have different strengths/weaknesses/holes in our learning. It may take some time for them to properly assess where you are at and what you need.

BartK The thing is that I very specifically don't want my first lesson to end up being a "let's continue from wherever you are" business as usual.

The reason I suggested bringing in a trouble spot and asking for advice was simply to vet the skills of the teacher. You want to make sure they are going to be able to give you the type of help you are looking for and in a manner that is comfortable for you.

Pallas

BartK I want to have a clear path and reassurance that I'm going in the right direction.

I wanted this too, with all my heart. I identify so strongly with your whole post I could have written it myself. I still want it. And every time I try to ask my teacher anything vaguely seasoned with this desire to have clarity, she sidesteps and it's very aggravating. But she'll put another thing under my nose, and I'll learn it diligently, then I find myself annoyingly further down the path toward what I said I wanted. If you find the teacher who will lay it all out in a way that satisfies you, please brag, because I'll be so happy for you, and I mean it sincerely, not passive aggressively, I promise. 🤣

I see what the others are saying, and it matches so far with my short experience. Every time I go to a lesson, she gives me 20 pieces of advice per piece, scribbles a rune on a piece of binder paper with my name on it, assigns me more stuff, and flings me out the door, NEXT. Every couple of weeks, we negotiate messily over a new piece in a way I don't really understand, and I get the urge to Ask About My Progress, and finally, last time, that's when she offered the exams.

Bart, do you want to do exams? Have you ever done them? I decided I wouldn't like to struggle over two pieces for a year, and preferred to just keep confusedly muddling along with increasing confidence (somehow) instead, but I wonder if having the exam rubric would satisfy the hunger for concrete goals, and that's why some people do them? Thanks for letting me ask questions in your sandbox here. I really learn a lot from other people's questions and experiences.

Ithaca

BartK I want to have a clear path and reassurance that I'm going in the right direction. I want the teacher to have the freedom to tear down the whole building and start from scratch if that's necessary. But I want the teacher to also lay down their plan clearly so I can see the path taken. Continuing business as usual without that understanding is only going to make me less confident that I'm making progress.

Pallas I wanted this too, with all my heart. I identify so strongly with your whole post I could have written it myself. I still want it. And every time I try to ask my teacher anything vaguely seasoned with this desire to have clarity, she sidesteps and it's very aggravating.

Speaking as someone who has taught (not piano) more than I would like (I'm not a natural at all, plus I don't like having to deal with people): I absolutely understand the desire for a clear plan and path, and I also understand why a good teacher can't really offer one. One might say, "we'll use these books and cover these topics", but when it comes down to the particular path that a student might take to get to goalposts 1 through 20....It's very student-dependent. An experienced teacher could say something like, "for students of type A, methods from group N seem to work best; students of type B do better with group O methods; students of type C....", but they're not going to know a priori whether you fall into any of their typical categories. And even just looking at students within each category, the things they get stuck on, and the particulars of how they think, can be highly variable.

If a teacher is working one-on-one with a student, then they always need to be reading the wind - stand outside, lick your finger, and see which side is getting colder, so to speak - to see whether they should keep going in the same direction, or backtrack, or stay put and drill down and/or circle, or veer off somewhere else entirely. Looking back, my best teachers knew the subject matter cold, plus they were always studying and reading me: was I ready to do xyz? Did I have the feeling of wanting to do abc, and if so, what were the possible ways that I might best first be able to grasp concept fgh? They would try to gauge whatever state I was in, and then make their best judgement about which direction to point me in and what guidance to give me along the way.

Some teachers have no answer to the "where am I going, and why am I in a handbasket?" question because they're not so good and/or they're just not thinking about their students. But sometimes it's because they know how unanswerable that question is.

BartK

JB_PT

Thanks for the insightful post. Indeed, maybe I should be careful what I wish for. I'm not sure I would like having a dictator teacher that doesn't give me any choice at all. On the other hand, free for all is also not that great (my second teacher felt like that). I have to find a balance between structure and fun.

I think I'll bring the Bach along with some of the shorter pieces. I'm working on the Dvořak Humoresque no. 7 which is a delightful little piece but has some tricky spots too.

I'm also thinking of having a one off consultations with online teachers not for the purpose of having regular lessons but to have an honest assessment of my present level. Does anyone have any experiences with that?

BartK

Pallas Bart, do you want to do exams? Have you ever done them?

Oh, no! Exams stress me out too much. Besides, they aren't really a thing here.

Pallas

BartK Oh, no! Exams stress me out too much. Besides, they aren't really a thing here.

Got it. Good luck. I'll be following your adventure with interest.

keff

BartK I have often given a great deal of thought about whether or not there is a systematic method of learning piano. My belief is that the nearest systematic approach that can be achieved are embedded in the extensive syllabi available by the ABRSM or RCM exam systems. As I never wanted to put myself through the stress of piano exams I elected not to follow any of them. To a large extent I now regret this choice as I could have followed the eight graded course of ABRSM without taking any exams and I would now be a more 'rounded' pianist. However just following the grades one after another will turn few individuals into professional musicians. There has to be much more 'reading around the subject' and this is where learning lots of other pieces of music perhaps in a random order is absolutely necessary.

My decision not to pursue the ABRSM route was made about twenty years ago when my goal was almost totally focused on being able to sight read. I thought being able to sight read would solve all my problems but that turned out not to be true. It left out all the technique required to play different styles of music. I cannot confirm that the ABRSM system will teach all the techniques required, it probably will not. It might be worth while for a student to draw up a list of different techniques to be discussed with a teacher so that pieces of music can be chosen to help development. My list would start with the following;

legato playing
staccato
staccato one hand legato the other
playing softly
playing loudly
soft one hand, loud the other
etc.
The list is as long as you wish to make it and it becomes part of a systematic approach.

JB_PT

BartK I'm working on the Dvořak Humoresque no. 7 which is a delightful little piece but has some tricky spots too.

This is one of the pieces my teacher recently suggested for me that was not on my radar. I agree with your assessment! I really enjoyed working on it.

Nightowl

Well, I noticed on another thread that you are playing a Rachmaninoff piece that is grade 8 or 10 (depending which system), so maybe you need to find a teacher with experience of teaching at a conservatoire? I don't know how you'd go about this - maybe if there is a conservatoire in your area you could go on their website and see if they offer private tuition? One thing's for sure, you're probably playing at the level of many self employed teachers (because from what I've read many of them don't have advanced diplomas), so it makes sense to narrow your search if your're seeking a very highly qualified teacher.
The right teacher might be a real asset, but I also think that you could continue to progress without one, if you practice diligently. Anyone capable of playing Rach is a pretty capable player, IMO.

Animisha

The best of luck Bart! I have personally given up the quest for a good teacher.

I have written numerous letters to prospective online teachers, and there is rarely any who says, No, I cannot help you with that (which in my case is, basically, help me improve my technique). Then I have a first lesson with them, they make me play C major contrary, and they have NO comment at all on my technique. Not telling me what to improve, but neither telling me what was good about it (in case I played it perfectly).

Also, being on this forum does not help. 🤪 Our discussions have given me a lot of rather firm ideas about how to learn and practise, for instance, no more playing through new pieces.
My latest (last?) teacher wanted me to play through a new piece before I had started practising it, so she could tell me how to play it. We did this with one piece, and I made so many mistakes! I felt pressured and got completely stressed out.

So yesterday I bought a year with Zachary Deak on Artist Works, in order to get feedback on my pieces. In that way, I don't have to deal with a teacher who does not teach in the way that I want to.

Still, I hope that somehow, one day, I will cross paths with a good piano teacher. But the next year, I won't be looking for them.

Simonb

Animisha

Hi Animisha

I hope the Zachary Deak on-line lessons work well for you.

Though as you used the phrase "does not teach in the way I want to" I have my doubts. If you have a very fixed view on how you should be taught, I'm not sure that you'll ever find a teacher (in person or on-line) who meets all your requirements.

I'd have thought the reason the Teacher asked you to play through the piece, that you hadn't practised, was to see how good your reading was.

This forum and the other one, that I've been on for much longer are great. There are many fabulous musicians posting on both. However I never post questions on technique or playing here (or there), as the variety of, sometimes very strong opinions expressed, a lot of the time makes drawing a sensible conclusion almost impossible.

For classical playing and technique I rely only on my Teacher. She is no virtuoso, in fact she is primarily a Viola player, but I expect to at least start working at diploma level with her over the next few years. I knew within a few minutes of our first lesson that she was the right person for me, as her musicality shines through.

Again good luck!

BartK

I booked a lesson with Greg Niemczuk. We'll see what he has to say.

Now I'm getting nervous... 😬😱

Pallas

BartK Good for you! I love his videos, and I admire your courage. Here's what you would tell me if the roles were reversed. You don't have to impress him. He's there to help. Your playing is going to progress! You can do this. (I believed you when you said it to me, and it's true. AND I also get very nervous too, every single lesson. I think it means we care very much, and that we're full of energy and excitement!) I hope you'll report on how it goes. I for one will be very interested.

Josephine

BartK

Ohh, that's great! Like Pallas I also hope you will report on how it goes!

Animisha

BartK

Good luck Bart, and please tell us!

Pallas

Simonb However I never post questions on technique or playing here (or there), as the variety of, sometimes very strong opinions expressed, a lot of the time makes drawing a sensible conclusion almost impossible.

I'm so glad you said this. I'm convinced that it was letting go of all the "shoulds" that helped me finally connect with a teacher. It's fun to talk about ideals, but in the end, each person is very different, each teacher is very different, and as pianists, part of the job is to take in a great deal of information, then make choices about how to use that information on our journey. It's fun to talk about the options, but in the end, no one else is there with us on the bench. I think that the most important skill that I never see anyone talk about is discernment. So of course, I'm wanting to make a new thread just about that. ☺️ (I thought about it, and realized I should use the time to practice instead! 😂)

Animisha

Simonb Though as you used the phrase "does not teach in the way I want to" I have my doubts. If you have a very fixed view on how you should be taught, I'm not sure that you'll ever find a teacher (in person or on-line) who meets all your requirements.

That is very true!

Simonb I'd have thought the reason the Teacher asked you to play through the piece, that you hadn't practised, was to see how good your reading was.

This was actually part of her teaching. So she could teach me how to play something before I start practising it. It is a completely valid part of teaching. However, for several reasons, I don't want to work that way.

Also,

Simonb I knew within a few minutes of our first lesson that she was the right person for me, as her musicality shines through.

I have never experienced this. Never!

But you are right, it is probably because I have too many ideas. 🤪
However, if I ever would find a teacher that I really trust, I would be happy to let go of all of them.