Fingering and Wrist Tension

WieWaldi · 2024-09-30T12:40:15+00:00

I encountered a new lick in my Blues lesson, but I don't like the fingering that was proposed by the YouTube Tutorial because it causes tension in my wrist....

MRC

Player1 Shift your body to avoid cranking your wrist so much. Slide over on the bench or lean or do both

It can depend on what the left hand is doing. If it's also comfortable for the left hand part, lean to the left. I wouldn't advise sliding to the left unless you have an extended passage where both hands play in the lower part of the keyboard: leaning is usually enough.

It can also help to make sure you're not sitting too near the keyboard, and to sit up straight or even lean back slightly, so that your elbow has more freedom to move to the left when necessary.

Whatever you do, avoid the uncomfortable bend at the wrist. Look for the most comfortable solution.

WieWaldi

Thank you for helping me. I was reading this and trying to incorporate in this measure...

keff I would play 1-2-4 but placing my thumb at the very end of the lower B (almost on the front of the key). Does the first note of the next bar having any bearing on the fingering?

The other thing to bear in mind is that the chord is the last"note" of a triplet so although I am no expert in these matters I wouldn't lift my hand in order to play 1-3-5 because it would likely result in accenting the end of that triplet.

Thanks, the tip with the thumb at the very end helped a bit. You are right about the 1-3-5 fingering, it doesn't get musical enough, I can't play it legato. No matter how hard I try.

Pallas Maybe it causes some pain, because my wrist faced the same pain already before. Now I just pay attention to make it not worse.

Player1 MRC Thank you, good ideas with changing the sitting position. (See below👇)

Ithaca Watching your video, I couldn't see what your overall body position was, but my sense was that you were sitting too far to the right, thus causing that wrist bend. When I sit where I usually do (middle C pretty much lines up with my center),

I was sitting in front of the "W" in "K A W A I". This is E4. I will try to sit somewhere more to the left, namely A4 or G3. At least for this piece, because it seems to work with the left hand. In the long run I should orient myself more to the "K" in "K A W A I", meaning middle C. As you suggested.

BartK You don't need to bend the wrist like that. On the last chord move finger 4 further back on the black key while keeping the thumb in the same spot. That should straighten your wrist and make it more comfortable.

Thank you, I tried to move the ring-finger further back, but it works only to a certain degree. I can't spread my hand that wide. But I can get it little bit more back. Plus (as keff suggested) position the thumb closer to the front of the key. Another finding was the placement of finger 5 before the chord. The more the pinky is at the back of the key, the more will finger 4 be at the back of the key afterwards.

2nd try - in the very end 3 screenshots: the new approach in the center, the old ones left and right side for comparing

iternabe

Is lateral bend of the wrist like that strictly forbidden?

I am asking because when I practice very slow arpeggios, it feels unavoidable to have lots of lateral wrist bending if I want to play legato. (I am aware that in fast arpeggio it's more arm leading whole hand shift with minimal wrist bend.) However, I have not felt wrist tension while doing that daily. One reason, I ponder, is my wrist don't stay in any fixed bending position any longer than necessary. Instead, the wrist always move back to neutral. So, maybe if you play the 1-2-4 chord then immediately relax it might be fine?

BartK

iternabe Is lateral bend of the wrist like that strictly forbidden?

I am asking because when I practice very slow arpeggios, it feels unavoidable to have lots of lateral wrist bending if I want to play legato.

Having a flexible wrist is essential to playing arpeggios and totally normal. What's not good is keeping your wrist bent for longer than necessary.

Ithaca

MRC beat me to it - I would lean left and/or back, depending on what the left hand is doing, plus I'd play near the back of the keys (move your hand forward/away from you to get a bit more distance from your body).

Watching your video, I couldn't see what your overall body position was, but my sense was that you were sitting too far to the right, thus causing that wrist bend. When I sit where I usually do (middle C pretty much lines up with my center), the 124 fingering position caused no such outward turn as what you show. (FWIW, my hands are small and I have short forearms - an instructor once told me that I had "T. Rex" arms.) I did lean back slightly and lift my wrist briefly (pure instinct), but if I make my wrist flat, there is still no angle.

BartK

WieWaldi
You don't need to bend the wrist like that. On the last chord move finger 4 further back on the black key while keeping the thumb in the same spot. That should straighten your wrist and make it more comfortable.

Player1

WieWaldi

I sit wherever I need to so I can play comfortably. Usually I start off in that position and stay there but I've seen a video on you tube where a youngster actually slid on the bench to the left in order to get to the bass keys while playing.

In Balestrand I'm sitting at around C5 because it's more comfortable to reach for B6 with my pinky from there. When I was practicing Wolf, I was centered closer to B4 so I could reach the bass keys comfortably and still be able to cross hand without cranking my wrist too much.

Basically I'm centered in the middle of the keyboard range I'm playing.

WieWaldi

Player1 Yes, this is something I might consider as well. I was also thinking to play the RH simply one octave higher. And from time to time go down to original. During practice, this could prevent to make my pain worse as it is. The muscle memory is almost the same with and without the octave shift, and it should quickly adapt when needed.

WieWaldi

I think I am now fine with this. There were a lot of good suggestions mentioned here in the thread. Thank you all!
The points that helped the most, were the tips of

Player1 I sit wherever I need to so I can play comfortably.

and

keff placing my thumb at the very end of the lower B (almost on the front of the key).

I rewatched the tutorial briefly and the teacher has this thumb placement exactly as keff suggested:

He adressed this issue in the video and said it is possible to do (for many of his students). Just relax the wrist and don't cramp! @iternabe actually said the same - I really need to learn to relax my hand. Furthermore he said: "if you can't do it, find a person that ows you money and tell him to play the B over your shoulder." This means, I am not the only one who has problems with that grip.

Player1

WieWaldi

If you're hurting when playing;

STOP!!!

Let your body heal before whatever is wrong gets worse. Then restart while making sure you're doing it correctly.

WieWaldi

Player1 Thank you. This is maybe the best advice: stop when it hurts.
Sitting more to he left helps tremendous, actually so much that I would not speak about pain anymore, just some tension. Same tension I have at everything else I do.
Playing softer helps, too. Unfortunately, playing soft is difficult when the brain is busy with learning new tricks.

iternabe

Player1 If you're hurting when playing;

STOP!!!

How to tell pain (potentially damaging) from soreness (normal)?

Player1

iternabe

Pain that lingers, or returns immediately upon using that part of the body, isn't "soreness" it's an injury.

twocats

WieWaldi I tried this out and can only be comfortable playing 1-2-4 if my wrist is high, with 2 and 4 higher up the keys. See if that helps!

twocats

twocats I tried this out and can only be comfortable playing 1-2-4 if my wrist is high, with 2 and 4 higher up the keys. See if that helps!

Not sure if you saw my comment, but I have small hands (can easily play an octave, a 9th only situationally) and raising my wrist high eliminates a lot of the rotation and makes the chord reasonably comfortable for me.

pseudonym58

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but everyone's hands, finger lengths, etc. are proportioned slightly differently, so YMMV.

ranjit

WieWaldi Looking at that image, try to play like that and then rotate your wrist forward slightly. It might be a bit more comfortable as your fingers will be higher.

BartK

WieWaldi
That looks very tense. Just move your hand up closer to the fallboard like this:

I don't know how large your hands are but for me this is very comfortable.

keff

WieWaldi I rewatched the tutorial briefly and the teacher has this thumb placement exactly as keff suggested:

WieWaldi Is this a photograph of your RH or that of the teacher? Either way it must be very similar to my own. My piano teacher has smaller hands and would have to arpeggiate the chord.

WieWaldi

ranjit Sorry - I am not sure what you exactly mean.
What do you mean with forward? Like lowering the throttle on a motorcycle?
What do you mean with higher? Closer to the fallboard or higher up in the air?

ranjit

WieWaldi What do you mean with forward?

The wrist rotates up and down. So rotate it up slightly, and have your fingers slightly elevate as a result. I know the explanation is a little cumbersome, but I hope this makes sense. This should make the 4th finger feel freer as a result too.

ranjit

WieWaldi Closer to the fallboard or higher up in the air?

Higher up in the air, more similar to how your hands would be if they were to your side.

WieWaldi

BartK
Oh, my hands are smaller than yours. You can see clearly my indexfinger is diagonal, while yours happens about to be straight forward. It is actually the thumb/indexfinger spread of my hand causing the wrist rotation.
Anyway, I don't think it makes any sense to move closer to the fallboard at all. From those pictures, we both could pull our hand back 2 cm, and it would form exactly the same shape as before, but having more control on the short key-sticks of digital pianos. IMO, there is only one reason to play near the fallboard: thumb and finger 4/5 are on black keys, causing the finger between to play near the fallboard.

It turned out, a good solution was to have the thumb at the end of the key, this allows to straighten the thumb for more reach. You know this trick when you are playing 10th, or maybe 11th or 12th in your case.
Anyway, from a logical standpoint, the thumb needs to be as close to the key-end, and the ringfinger as close to the fallboard as possible, because this is the position that needs the least rotation in the wrist. Unfortunately this causes more spread between thumb and index-finger.
Watch my last video at 1:06 and you can see how the relative finger placement influences the wrist rotation:

WieWaldi

keff This picture is from my teachers YouTube video