Learning Scales/Keys

BKN1964 · 2024-09-15T14:10:25+00:00

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on the best way to go about learning scales, fingerings, keys (chords in a scale including extensions), etc. Do you fi...

PianoMonk

BKN1964 Perhaps a little background would frame your expectations... help us offer pertinent suggestions, rather than assuming you know more, or less, than you do.
Since you've had formal training, and are returning to the piano, you must already have some idea about scales and chords. But you haven't said where you're at, other than wanting to learn jazz.
Do you plan to play in a group? Or are you just going solo? Are you hoping to play "Standards", cocktail type jazz piano, or what? What "jazz tune" or tunes do you play now? What song or songs would you like to play?

Personally, I find the chord/scale relationships endlessly fascinating. You can separate the two, and either learn scales and proper fingerings, or chords and their inversions, or work on them together. Either approach will bear fruit, and after a while, (different amounts of time for different players), you will internalize what you have learned.

To improvise requires knowing what you can play within the song structure, essentially which notes of what scales will sound good, or at least make sense, with the chords. To do this, on the fly, you need to have those chord/scale relationships in your bag of tricks. And the other thing you need is the ears to be able to "hear" the changes and how what you're going to play will sound.

If you plan on reading the sheet music to songs and improvising based on the written chord changes, you can learn what scales to play over those chords, thereby learning some scales in context. Then pick another song and do the same. All of Jamie Aebersold's play-a-long books offer a scale syllabus for the solos, showing which scales work with the changes. His #54 "Maiden Voyage" has a nice selection of tunes played at comfortable tempos. You can also turn off the piano side to play along with just bass and drums, once you feel comfortable enough.
https://www.jazzbooks.com/jazz/product/V54DS

At any rate, keep at it, ask questions of other players, maybe try to find a teacher, and above all, listen to the jazz players who play the tunes you'd like to play.

BKN1964

Thanks PianoMonk.

I'm not currently playing jazz with others, although my plan is to try to get a small group of other beginners together to learn/improve together. I've played with some pop/rock groups, but our focus was usually on trying to recreate the recorded version of a song, or at least a version you would have expected to hear the band play live. My interests at the moment are Standards/Great American Songbook, Hard Bop, and Cool Jazz.

Keep in mind my focus isn't to learn to "play scales", but to really internalize the keys. For example, the instructor of the online resource I use expects you to be able to bang out the 7th chords of a scale in order, while naming them, in about 4 seconds without having to hesitate and think about them, and to be able to grab any of the inversions at will. I read a while back a person talking about their child being in a jazz program at a music school. The instructor expected every student to be able to immediately answer questions like "What's the 11th degree of the A major scale?". Having those concepts deeply ingrained seem like they will be necessary to become fluent in the language of jazz.

What I'm really looking for is the most efficient way to deeply ingrain these concepts. Learning the scales with proper fingering doesn't really seem like the answer. Maybe the first step is really academic, where I have to sit down every day with pencil and paper and write out the notes of the keys, including the extensions, from memory. Maybe make some flash cards that I use to quiz myself like the question in the paragraph above.

My goal is to be able to play with no more than lead sheets, with the use of those lead sheets being more like you would use note cards during a speech; not reading from them, but at the most using them as a quick reference here-and-there. More ideally be able to have the basic chord progressions of a lot of jazz tunes memorized based on the "language" of jazz, knowing that there are "rules" that the songs usually follow.

PianoMonk

BKN1964 Okay, now were getting somewhere...
The first thing that jumps out, from what you've said, I think (and this is just my opinion) that you absolutely must know the correct scale fingerings. Otherwise, even if you could recite something like the 11th of A major by heart, your fingers won't get you where you want to go, when you want to improvise, without having those fingerings come easily.
Based on what you said, I would recommend you pick a few tunes, doesn't matter the key, just make sure they are tunes you really like, and work on them. Pick them apart, find the scales that go with the chords in the context of the key the song is in, and practice playing those scales over the changes. Maybe find the 2-5-1s, or turnarounds, and work on those. Once you're at the point where you can get around smoothly through those changes of those three or four tunes. Add another tune. But keep working on the others. You will subconsciously recognize the chord/scale structure similarities of these tunes, and future tunes.

If you haven't tried it, I suggest looking at "I Got Rhythm". This tune covers a lot of "jazz ground".
Jamey Aebersold has a Play-a-Long called "I Got Rhythm Changes In All Keys"
https://www.jazzbooks.com/jazz/product/V47DS
The play-a-long tracks are good, comfortable tempos. But the book's breakdown of the "original rhythm" and "jazz rhythm", with regard to the various scales that can be used to improvise is comprehensive. And if you can get around on "Rhythm Changes", you'll find those changes, or parts of the changes, in lots of other tunes.

If you plan on playing with horns, or having them want to play with you, you have to work on Bb (trumpet, tenor sax) and Eb (alto sax). I know a piano player who can play almost any tune and improvise to the point where he sounds good. But he can only play in C and A minor. Horn players (and female vocalists) hate playing with him.

Plinky

This might be of interest - I saw it on the web a few months back when someone asked about the most commonly used keys in jazz piano. This is probably based on a large number of standards, but not 100% sure.

TC3

Plinky That matches my experience (as a sometimes upright bassist) pretty well. C, F, Bb, and Eb tend to work pretty well with various horns (trumpt, tenor sax, alto sax) given their typical respective keys (Bb, Eb).

Bellyman

Plinky , that's interesting.

I note the keys that are not there. E, F#/Gb, and B. Though I have little bits and pieces in pretty much every key, I would probably say that B and E are my least favorite to play in. I actually like F#/Gb and have one or two numbers that I play there.

I also found the "minor keys" at only 4% kinda surprising as I'd have thought it might be higher... (as he contemplates all of the flat 5's in "Round Midnight", and whether or not it really will resolve to a major at the end... LOL!!

TC3

Bellyman Gb major and Eb minor are fun to play on keys, especially if you can stick with pentatonic scales! 🙂

Bellyman

PianoMonk If you plan on playing with horns, or having them want to play with you, you have to work on Bb (trumpet, tenor sax) and Eb (alto sax). I know a piano player who can play almost any tune and improvise to the point where he sounds good. But he can only play in C and A minor. Horn players (and female vocalists) hate playing with him.

Yeah, I hear ya!!

Some horn players really can play in just about any key, and I admire that when they can! Some piano players, same.

Had a guy playing trumpet at jazz jam a few nights ago that wanted to play along with my version of Stardust. It's a lot like a Dave Brubeck recording, and in Db. Not a nice key for trumpet players. I was playing in the usual style (quiet smokey jazz) and he wanted to play along. It was like "end of intermission" time so nothing serious going on. I offered to change the key but he said no. So I continued. He had a pretty rough time with it. I used to play trumpet in my younger years, I know what some of the fingering is like. No shame. It's kinda tricky.

To be honest, Bb isn't really one of my favorites but I'm getting better at it, to the point where it feels more natural under my hands. I have several songs in the current repertoire that are in Bb. Eb is probably one of my top favorites, though. I guess it's all in what a person gets used to.

rsl12

Bellyman I don't know why, but Bb required some extra time for me as well. Way more than Eb or F or even Ab. Maybe it's because the tunes I associate with Bb are all fast bebop tunes.

PianoMonk

Bellyman Then.... for digital piano players... there is that transpose feature. But, where's the fun in that?

thepianoplayer416

Bellyman

rsl12, dunno. Was contemplating whether the hand position when starting the Bb scale puts the thumb on the Bb and then moving up from there, white keys for C and D, if you start with the thumb on Bb, which is maybe a bit more awkward than some other scales. (?)

rsl12

Bellyman that's true for Eb too but somehow Eb didn't give me as much trouble.

Bellyman

rsl12, true. Dunno what the reasons are. (?)

Bellyman

PianoMonk, I have never been able to use the transpose feature well. I can if I have to but it is difficult for me.

At one time, I tuned pianos for a major part of my living. And even though I don't have "perfect pitch" like some claim, I can get pretty darned close. When I play a C, my ears expect to hear a C, not a B, not a C#, those are different notes. So I can get pretty confused about what I'm playing when the aural feedback is skewed.

thepianoplayer416

BKN1964

Bellyman I saw Jordan Rudess talking about this. He has perfect pitch and had to do this for something. He said it almost drove him crazy.

iternabe

@Bellyman BKN1964 Interesting. What about singers? I have the impression they transpose naturally and frequently. Of course, there are no keys/buttons to hit in the vocal cord so it’s easier. But they also use solfège and relative pitch. I now wonder, do singers with absolute pitch have a harder time to transpose?

Bellyman

iternabe, it's a good question, and one I'd never really contemplated before.

I did sing as a younger person but I remember that it was often the goal to NOT use music, to have it memorized. I suspect I play the piano in a very similar way as I find reading (music) very tedious. I tend to learn "tunes". Words just go along with some of them.

I saw someone do a YouTube talking about it (speaking of playing the piano) and explained it more as having the key as the base and thinking in terms of the intervals of the tune, something like 1 to 6 to 2 to 5 and back to 1, that kind of thing, doesn't matter what note of the scale a person starts on. Once you have your starting point, the intervals that follow are your guide, not so much the actual notes. If you start on the 2 and are doing a 2-5-1, and happen to be in the key of C, it would be a D chord, a G chord, and then a C chord. If you're in Eb, it would be an F chord, a Bb chord, and then an Eb chord. Etc. It's not about the note, it's about the interval. And at that point, it's a matter of the technical skills to actually hit the correct notes on a keyboard, your instrument, or your voice. (I hope I said that well enough. I know what I mean but sometimes have a hard time getting it out.)

iternabe

Bellyman What you described, I believe, is exactly how Movable Do Solfège works. There is also the Numbered Musical Notation widely taught in Eastern Asia. I learned some of this in elementary school music class. Now, decades later, I start to learn the Modern Staff Notation, the old habits has been both a help and a hinderance.

Sight singing a tune on the staff in any key can be easier if I read everything relative to the tonic note - this way no need to worry about sharp or flats, because 3-4 or mi-fa is always a half step, so is 7-1 or ti-do. The roman numeral chords (I-IV-V/V7) are also easy to see and recognize. This is also where scales practice comes in because it's super helpful if the association between solfège note name and finger becomes second nature in any key. I suppose that's how some people get good at transposing?

On the other hand, someone in PW forum mentioned a very valuable skill for sight-reading is the ability to associate the absolute note position on the staff to their position on the piano keyboard, without thinking. Relying on solfège or interval reading is like a crutch that hinders the development of direct association of positions. At least that what I am feeling so far.

candela

iternabe On the other hand, someone in PW forum mentioned a very valuable skill for sight-reading is the ability to associate the absolute note position on the staff to their position on the piano keyboard, without thinking. Relying on solfège or interval reading is like a crutch that hinders the development of direct association of positions.

In my mind it's beneficial to use a combination of both absolute and relative pitch when playing the piano. Caveat: my primary instrument is the clarinet, which I've been playing for decades since childhood. For the clarinet it's essential to immediately be able to know the possible fingerings for a particular note. It's not straightforward like a piano keyboard so as a beginner you couldn't just assume but had to learn and practice every single note individually and gradually increase your range. Seeing the note on the staff has to immediately trigger a corresponding fingering and air stream. Learning scales and arpeggios came somewhat later. So the absolute way of reading music is deeply ingrained in my mind and not cultivating immediate recognition of all notes on the grand staff would to me seem like a certain way to make sight reading immensely more difficult.
When starting to learn the piano a few years ago it took me several months to get to know the bass clef as solidly as the familiar treble clef but for me I couldn't imagine not making that effort.

However, for tasks like reading chords and arpeggios as well as harmonizing by ear or audiating the sheet music in my mind, intervals and solfeggio (together with a deep familiarity with different key signatures) are very useful. I consider it a complement not a crutch. Say for instance that your score has a triad chord in root position. If you immediately recognize the space-space-space or line-line-line "snowman shape" as a triad you only need to read the root and shape your hand correctly for the upper two notes which means a fraction as much attention there and more mental space to process other parts of the score. Same with scale runs etc. Also if you learn to hear the scale degrees of different chords and immediately know which absolute chords they correspond to in different key signatures it helps with memorization, playing by ear, and possibly to some degree reading.

Simonb

iternabe
Hi

It mIght have been me on PW.

I spent years learning to understand chords many decades ago, and not only did it give me a way into improvisation it also improved my sight reading.

I saw a great analogy recently where somebody (MRC on PW I think) equated reading music to reading sentences. When you read a word in a sentence you don't read each individual letter of every word you just read the word. That's exactly how I relate individual notes to chords. If I see G Bb D in a score I don't read each individual note I just automatically think Gm chord.

Now with very complex harmonies I sometimes struggle, but for a lot it's pretty much an instantaneous process. I see the notes on the page, but read them as a chord, and play the shape in the appropriate place on the Piano. For non-classical playing I play from chord charts all the time anyway, so the translation of chords to a pattern on the keyboard is ingrained in my playing now. But it definitely helps your classical sight reading as well.

I should add it took me quite a few years to develop this ability. Like anything on the Piano it took a lot of hard work, but the benefits are huge. For me it was mainly the chance to play in various Pop/Rock, Blues & Jazz bands over the last 4/5 decades, which you really can't do if you need everything written out on 2 staves in front of you.

Not sure whether this is on topic with the rest of the thread - apologies if I've drifted off it, or indeed if any of you have while reading this!

Cheers

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